To: 386users@TWG.COM Subject: 80386 mailing list, vol 4 #12 Date: 26 Feb 89 07:22:17 EST (Sun) From: "Wm E. Davidsen" 80386 User's mailing list vol 4 #12 Feb 26, 1989 In this issue: Everex Step 386/20 -- Power-up problems! [ 4 msgs ] Inexpensive 386 systems 386 Caches for the 386 mailing list (resend) 80386 upgrade for 80286... Tops NetPrint under Windows/386 Windows 286 <-> 386 Intel 302 Gateway Computers A Windows/386 "Quirk" Use of BIOS in 386 mode [ 2 msgs ] The addresses for the list are now: 386users@TWG.COM - for contributions to the list or ...!uunet!TWG.COM!386users 386users-request@TWG.COM - for administrivia or ...!uunet!TWG.COM!386users-request P L E A S E N O T E If you want to get on or off the list, or change your address, please mail to the 386users-request address, or the message will be delayed by having to hand forward it (for your convenience, not mine). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chip@ateng.ateng.com (Chip Salzenberg) Subject: Everex Step 386/20 -- Power-up problems! Date: 14 Feb 89 22:52:48 GMT Once upon a time, A T Engineering bought several Everex Step 386/20 computers and sold some of them to our customers. They were great. They were fast. If you powered them on while the printer was on and connected, they were dead. Nothing. Nada. Not even the fancy front panel display. This problem was nothing more than a nuisance until we found that the same problem would be caused by leaving an Archive tape drive on and plugged in. Of course, the Xenix drivers for the Archive only look for the tape at power-up, so if you turn off the drive so the computer will start, then you can't use the tape at all. And trying to use the tape with the computer dead was, at best, a waste of time. The nice people from Everex came in and replaced our rev E motherboard with a rev G motherboard, which fixed the problem. Unfortunately, that upgrade isn't supposed to be free, and we're still trying to work that out. In the meantime, our customers with rev E motherboards can't use their Archive tape drives unless they're willing to shell out $500. This is not making our customers happy. So has anyone else had this trouble with Everex Step 386 motherboards? Are we the only Everex users with printers and Archive tapes? What's going on? -- Chip Salzenberg or A T Engineering Me? Speak for my company? Surely you jest! "It's no good. They're tapping the lines." ------------------------------ From: dave@micropen (David F. Carlson) Subject: Re: Everex Step 386/20 -- Power-up problems! Date: 15 Feb 89 17:16:10 GMT In article <1989Feb14.175249.25055@ateng.ateng.com>, chip@ateng.ateng.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes: > If you powered them on while the printer was on and connected, they were > dead. Nothing. Nada. Not even the fancy front panel display. > > So has anyone else had this trouble with Everex Step 386 motherboards? Are > we the only Everex users with printers and Archive tapes? What's going on? > -- > Chip Salzenberg or We have used Steps here since last spring. We have had *1* customer report of this sort (rev E) and were unable to duplicate the problem here (Everex QIC-02 tape card.) By my experience, not all revs of E boards will fail with certain devices attached, but those that do really suck. I'm glad I know what this little deal is now. -- David F. Carlson, Micropen, Inc. micropen!dave@ee.rochester.edu "The faster I go, the behinder I get." --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ From: optical@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Everex Step 386/20 -- Power-up problems! Date: 15 Feb 89 18:17:42 GMT In article <1989Feb14.175249.25055@ateng.ateng.com>, chip@ateng.ateng.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes: > Once upon a time, A T Engineering bought several Everex Step 386/20 > computers and sold some of them to our customers. > They were great. > They were fast. > If you powered them on while the printer was on and connected, they were > dead. Nothing. Nada. Not even the fancy front panel display. > > This problem was nothing more than a nuisance until we found that the same > problem would be caused by leaving an Archive tape drive on and plugged in. > Of course, the Xenix drivers for the Archive only look for the tape at > power-up, so if you turn off the drive so the computer will start, then you > can't use the tape at all. And trying to use the tape with the computer > dead was, at best, a waste of time. > > The nice people from Everex came in and replaced our rev E motherboard with > a rev G motherboard, which fixed the problem. Unfortunately, that upgrade > isn't supposed to be free, and we're still trying to work that out. In the > meantime, our customers with rev E motherboards can't use their Archive tape > drives unless they're willing to shell out $500. This is not making our > customers happy. > > So has anyone else had this trouble with Everex Step 386 motherboards? Are > we the only Everex users with printers and Archive tapes? What's going on? > -- > Chip Salzenberg or > A T Engineering Me? Speak for my company? Surely you jest! > "It's no good. They're tapping the lines." YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!! I was working for a local computer store last summer, and we had the same problem with Everex 386 machines (verious model types). We had to replace the mother board all the time ( 6 out of 10 units we ordered had this problem). Due to the long wait to get replacement part from Everex, the owner finaly gave up carrying Everex 386 machines. The problem we had encountered are: (1). System will not start at all after power has been turned off for more than 5 hours. You have to turn the power on and wait for about 20 min. then try to reboot. It will then work without any problems. (2). For those units without the above problem originally, if a 80387 coprocessor is installed, then they would not start in the morning (the same problem as (1)). Everex never told us what was wrong with those units. Qiwu Liu ------------------------------ From: jbayer@ispi.UUCP (Jonathan Bayer) Subject: Re: Everex Step 386/20 -- Power-up problems! Date: 16 Feb 89 15:18:50 GMT In article <1989Feb14.175249.25055@ateng.ateng.com> chip@ateng.ateng.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes: >Once upon a time, A T Engineering bought several Everex Step 386/20 >If you powered them on while the printer was on and connected, they were >dead. Nothing. Nada. Not even the fancy front panel display. >This problem was nothing more than a nuisance until we found that the same >problem would be caused by leaving an Archive tape drive on and plugged in. >Of course, the Xenix drivers for the Archive only look for the tape at >power-up, so if you turn off the drive so the computer will start, then you >can't use the tape at all. And trying to use the tape with the computer ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Not so. Do the following command and the tape drive will work OK: tape reset and wait until the drive finishes resetting. > >So has anyone else had this trouble with Everex Step 386 motherboards? Are >we the only Everex users with printers and Archive tapes? What's going on? We're running a Step 25 here, with no problems such as you described. JB -- Jonathan Bayer Beware: The light at the end of the Intelligent Software Products, Inc. tunnel may be an oncoming dragon 19 Virginia Ave. ...uunet!ispi!jbayer Rockville Centre, NY 11570 (516) 766-2867 jbayer@ispi.UUCP ------------------------------ From: paula@bcsaic.UUCP (Paul Allen) Subject: Inexpensive 386 systems Date: 14 Feb 89 06:52:45 GMT After months of research, I believe that I've found two 386 systems that come close to satisfying my requirements. The characteristics I've been looking for include: inexpensive; fast; reliable; 32-bit memory expandable to 16M. I haven't seen magazine reviews on either of these machines, so I'm wondering if anyone in netland has experience with them. The descriptions that follow are from ads and telephone conversations with salesmen. System 'A': Vendor: QIC Research (800) 843-0806 Cpu: 20Mhz 386, 387 socket Memory: interleaved (80ns page-mode 1Mb drams) 1Mb on motherboard 2 32-bit slots for optional 8Mb cards that must be populated in 2Mb increments. I/O: 1 parallel, 2 serial Disk: 1.2 floppy, 72M Micropolis, Omti 1:1 controller Video: hercules compatible monochrome Price: $2984 with 1M and above configuration; empty 8M card +$199 (Microprocessors Unlimited has 80ns page-mode drams for $35) Warrantee: 30 day moneyback, 1 yr parts+labor, first year on-site service for +$40 System 'B': Vendor: CompuAdd (800) 627-1967 Cpu: 20MHz 3386, 387 socket, Weitek socket Memory: Cache (uses 82385), four sockets for 1M or 4M simms (I didn't record the speed) I/O: 1 parallel, 2 serial on motherboard Disk: 1.2 floppy, 80M Seagate, WD 1003WA2 1:3 controller, IDE (Integrated Drive Electronics) interface built-in but not used due to current prohibitive cost of drives. Video: hercules compatible monochrome Price: $3095 with 1M and above configuration; 4M simms $1699, Microprocessors Unlimited has 1M 100ns simms for $360 Warrantee: 30 day moneyback, 1 yr parts+labor, first year carry-in maint contract: +$130 >From reports I've seen on the net, both of these companies enjoy good reputations. The QIC machine would perhaps be hampered a bit by its lack of a cache, but then the slow WD1003 is the only controller CompuAdd sells. The man at QIC claims that QIC makes his machine, although various net reports have spoken of QIC as a re-seller of Everex systems. The QIC machine described above doesn't match their most recent ad in the Feb. BYTE. This suggests that the machine they're trying to sell me is fairly new, but I haven't asked that question. The CompuAdd system is one of four new high-end 386 and 286 machines that were apparently first announced in a catalog I got from them in the last month. The CompuAdd salesman claimed that the new systems were designed by CompuAdd, but actually manufactured by somebody else. (He didn't specify, and I neglected to ask.) So, has anybody got experience with these companies (or better yet, experience with these particular machines!) that they can pass on? Does any of the above information raise a big red flag for you? If so, please send email. I'll summarize in a week or so. Thanks! Paul Allen -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Paul L. Allen | pallen@atc.boeing.com Boeing Advanced Technology Center | ...!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!bcsaic!pallen ------------------------------ From: steinmetz!uunet!mipos2!mipos3!kds (Ken Shoemaker ~) Date: 16 Feb 1989 0810-PST (Thursday) Subject: 386 Caches for the 386 mailing list (resend) I believe the reasons that you find 64k direct mapped caches on 386 systems is that the technology available in high-speed static RAMs (16k x 4) matches this size of cache. The reason you see 32k two-way set associative caches on 386 systems is that this matches the size and configuration of the cache that is supported by the Intel 385 cache controller. With regards to how the caches support writes from peripheral devices, the 385 supports "snooping," wherein anytime a write happens anytime in the system aside from the 386, the address is looked up in the tag array, and if that location is resident in the cache, it is invalidated. This forces any subsequent 386 access to that memory location to go to the latest entry in main memory. I'm not sure about all the discrete implementations (i.e., 64k direct mapped caches), but one technique that I have seen requires that all writes in the system go through the cache in parallel with main memory. While this works, it requires more cache bandwidth than in the 385 case, which means that the 386 is denied access to its cache more often, which can hurt overall system performance. Of course, which choice is "best" depends on the load on the machine. Overall, both techniques seem to provide roughly equivalent performance. As to whether caches provide a performance boost to zero wait state systems, well, again, it depends on the load. If you have a large amount of DMA-type I/O going on, then the cache can operate in parallel with main memory in providing the 386 memory access while the rest of the memory system is tied up doing the I/O access. In addition, the cache will insulate the 386 from lapses in memory access during DRAM refreshes. But, again, in general, I don't believe that it would make that much of a difference in a PC. But the question is really academic. With 386s (and microprocessors) getting faster and faster, it is getting to be difficult to make large memory arrays that can keep up with the processor. Ken Shoemaker ------------------------------ From: steinmetz!uunet!physics.rice.edu!zielke Date: 18 Feb 89 15:44:00 CST Subject: 80386 upgrade for 80286... In reference to the recent requests on information about 80286 upgrades to 80386's. I am running an INTEL InBoard 386 in my IBM AT. I have been extremely happy with the board. The board is a 16mhz board with a 64Kb cache. One can also purchase a 2mb daughter board to bring 32bit memory up to 3mb. It will use all of your existing extended memory. While 386 replacement motherboards are an option, I have been very happy with Intel's support of this board. I have never waited more than 3-5 min. for help on the phone and it is a free call. They have a touch tone assistance system which will at the least keep you amused during the wait and has provided much useful information. They also have a large number of drivers available, I called about running the board at high speed under Xenix and they sent a drivers disk for free. It arrived in 3days via regular mail, so they must have mailed it that day. One big plus with this board is the ability to turn off the cache or switch speed (motherboard original or 16mhz) with a TSR in DOS or with a little routine to write to the control ports directly. Intel provided all of this information rapidly. Overall the compatability has been exceptional. I have had no purchased software package fail, and only two pieces of shareware. (Both of these run with Windows 386 without trouble, so I would say that it is the softwares fault and probably would not run with any 386) Performance has been exceptional. It runs at what apperars to be the same speed as any 386 motherboard. Remember that many 386 motherboards run the 16bit slots at 8mhz anyway. The 2mb piggy is running at 16mhz without using a slot and so all around produces a very nice machine. Let me know if you would like to know any more.... David M. Zielke =============================================================================== ARPA==> Zielke@Physics.Rice.Edu * Zielke@128.42.9.23 * After Three Days MaBell==> 713-527-8101 ext. 4018 work * Without Programming 713-666-2982 home * Life Becomes US Snail==> David M. Zielke * Meaningless 7490 Brompton #110 * Houston, Tx 77025 * -The Tao of Programming =============================================================================== P.S. I have no connection with Intel except a very satisfied user... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Feb 89 17:24 N Reply-To: uunet!cunyvm.cuny.edu!CAVECCHIA%ITNVAX.INFNET%ICINECA2.BITNET Subject: Tops NetPrint under Windows/386 Does anyone have any experience using TOPS NetPrint (Appletalk LAN) under Windows/386? If I try to print a document using the Windows internal spooler (printer is an Apple Laserwriter NTX attached to the Appletalk card but the NetPrint driver redirects LPT1 to this card so I have to select LPT1 as printer port inside Windows) it seems that Windows correctly sends all the job to the TOPS spooler but the spooling process doesn`t actually start until I exit Windows. Maybe there is a conflict problem between the Windows/386 kernel and the Appletalk driver. I have tried to say "spooler=no" in the WIN.INI file but, with this setting, sometimes the machine hangs up, especially when I try to print a very large file. Any hints about this? Many thanks in advance Valter V. Cavecchia Centro di Fisica del C.N.R. I-38050 Povo (TN) - Italy cavecchia@itncisca (bitnet) itnvax::cavecchia (decnet 37.65) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Feb 89 11:56:50 PST From: "Jeff Sicherman,CSU Long Beach" Subject: Windows 286 <-> 386 Is Windows 386 a combination of Windows 286 plus a program like 386 to the Max or Quarterdecks verion, or is it a complete, non-seperable entity. In particular, can I purchase the 386 version and then transfer it to the 286 system if the 386 becomes unusable for a period of time, or do I have to buy both ? Is there a 386 upgrade for the 286 package ? Jeff Sicherman jajz801@calstate.bitnet ------------------------------ Subject: Intel 302 Date: 16 Feb 89 12:59:02 GMT (Thu) From: jpp@slxsys.specialix.co.uk (John Pettitt) > From: kmk@icc.UUCP (Krishna Komanduri) > Subject: Intel System 302 > Date: 6 Dec 88 21:07:05 GMT > > I am considering purchasing of Intel System 302 25Mhz '386 machine. Does > anyone out there who have used and have any comments about its features, > performance etc. with respect to IBM PS/2, Compaq 386's, etc. and also > any features which are absent from others. > > Thanks in advance. > > Krishna Komanduri. > The machine I am writing this from is a 302, we have it set up as follows: OS: Xenix 2.3 386 + Xenix net 1.2 + VP/ix Memory: 4 MB Ram Video: EGA HD Controller: WD1003 Hard Disk: CDC 380MB (16ms) Tape: Wangtek 120 MB Printers: AST TurboLazer/PS (PostScript) I/O: SI/32, COM1&2, LPT1 Modems: TrailBlazer Quattro It serves as a development host for our SI intelligent I/O cards, supporting 4 development users, 6 news feeds and 20+ mail feeds. There are two problems that we have with it, firstly we need some more ram - two copies of vpix and a troff will bring it to a halt - this is easy to fix all I have to do if find the budget. The second problem is the power supply, there are not enough connectors for a 5.25 floppa, a tape, and a 3.5 inch floppy even though the system has space for 3 peripherals. John Pettitt ------------------------------ From: jpdres13@usl-pc.usl.edu (Joubert John V) Subject: Gateway Computers Date: 18 Feb 89 03:34:49 GMT I have a Gateway 2000 386 machine that I bought around X-mas time. Right now, I am very pleased. I had some problems with the first machine that I received. 1) Within 4 hours of getting the machine, I suddenly had a yellow spot on the screen instead of a full screen. The mono (amber) monitor apparently bit the big one. I tried fooling with the video card to see if it worked itself loose during shipping. Nope. Put it back together and turned on the monitor, nope , not even a yellow dot, just a power light on monitor. I then wanted to see if the Samsung monitor had blown a fuse, I removed two screws from the bottom , and could find no others. At this point I realized that I needed some kind of case cracker (a la Macintosh) to open the monitor. So then I just put the thing back together, and praying for divine intervention ( :-) ), I plugged the thing in just one more time. Now the power light did not come on! At this point I realized I am never gonna get this monitor to live. I became interested to see if the computer still ran, I managed to redirect a "dir" to my printer port. So I knew the computer ran. 2) During the 4 hours I had been able to use the computer, I had drive problems, If I was fooling around on a floppy drive , changing dir's or getting dir's, the computer would lock up. 3) Printer port would not initialize via "mode lpt1:80,6" statement, every time, and I was sporadically able to use the printer port. I checked the printer card to make sure that the setting was on lpt1:, it was. 4) Once while using xcopy to move some data from drive D: to C: in a subdir, the subdir did not appear on C: ! So I mkdir'd the dir and went into it. There were my files, but in a scrambled looking form. Chkdsk told me I had a gazillion lost clusters all over the place. At this point, I was eyeing my shotgun, and was musing about how quickly I could put that machine to an early merciful death. I called tech support, and I told my problems, I got a new printer card, new controller card, and a new monitor. I was pretty dissatisfied with ugly yellow amber and asked him if he would give me credit on the old broken monitor and video card ,and fix me up with paper white vga and a Video Seven Fastwrite VGA. He said yes, and sent me an Imtec Paper white VGA, and the requested card. Put all the stuff in the computer when it arrived, and the monitor worked fine. Still had Hard drive problems, and the printer problem was worse, I could not use my printer at all! The computer still crashed periodically when accessing floppies. I then decided to take advantage of the thirty day return policy guarantee and get my money back. I was put in touch with the head of tech support. I told him that part swapping was not going to cure my machine, and that I thought I got a big yellow lemon. After hearing about all the problems, he promptly agreed that I had indeed received a rare lemon. He told me that he knew that his company made excellent machines, and that he was sure that that his company could provide me with a good machine.I was told that I could send the machine back (my postage expense) and get my refund or he could send me a new one. I told him that if I got a whole new machine with his company, I would want a new sales receipt, and a new 30 day trial period, I also wanted him to pay the postage. I was put in touch with the head of the sales dept. to make out a new order, and figure the logistics of a swap. The sales dept. head offered me a new 80 meg hard drive instead of my 40 meg for free! I said that was real nice, but what I really needed was a color vga monitor, and he said OK! He gave the monitor for FREE (gave him back paper white ), new machine, new sales receipt, and new 30 day trial period! I have the new machine and love it, and am extremely pleased with the way that Gateway has handled my account. They were very willing to give me a refund for my money, or make me happy with a new computer. I have suggest two things to watch for: 1) I have bought a Logitech Hi-Rez bus mouse, and have had to send it in (under warranty) to have some chips changed to make it work with my computer because "some motherboards make it do that (Logitech service dept.)" What it does is make the cursor go crazy, making the mouse non-usable. I have not gotten it back yet, so I don't have anything else to report on that. 2) VGA card -- the default vga card that they ship with their 386 computers is a 16-bit Tatung VGA card. This a Korean card that has Video Seven chips on it. This is probably the junkiest video card for compatibility in the world. The vertical retrace end register should make the bios call with the value AE being passed in & out of the video card to be IBM compatible, this video card, for some brain damaged reason, chooses to send the combination value 8E in & out of this call. On the other hand, having the Video Seven VGA Fastwrite card in the computer prevents the reset button on the front panel of the computer from working (This is why they put the Tatung because it has Vega chips, but lets the reset button work, I don't think that they yet know what a piece of sh*t Tatung is.) This does not bother me however, because the ctrl-alt-del still works, and ST-251-1 and ST-4096 hard drives that Gateway uses auto park the heads when you power down for a cold boot. The result: I am pleased, very pleased and happy with my computer, my 386/20 mhz cost me $3000 from Gateway and I have a hard time finding a better deal. The newest price list for a 20 mhz is $2999 for an EGA card, EGA monitor, 1meg memory (8meg default internal expandable, 12 meg optional if you get another from the mother board manufacturer , Hawk computers' Gene II, Gateway can give you the address. ), 1to1 interleave drive controller, and 80 meg ST-4096. There is a faster 25 Mhz combination for $3999, but I don't know what it is. My boss just bought an 8088, 10mhz, 640K, 40 meg hd, EGA system for $2200, and another friend just bought a PS/2 model 30 8086, 10 mhz, one or more wait states, 20 meg very slow (80 msec) hard drive, CGA monitor for $2500. Somehow I feel that I did pretty well, no doubt that there may be better deals out there, but I looked hard, and I did not find it. Excuse my long article, but since a few people out there have been asking about this computer, I thought that they should know. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Joubert | /\ | /\ | _ jpdres13@usl-pc.USL or ... | \|<>|>|> \|<>|>|><`|`| ut-sally!usl!usl-pc!jpdres13 |-----/|-------/|---------------------- GEnie: J.JOUBERT | \/ \/ - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: meyer@s.cs.uiuc.edu Subject: A Windows/386 "Quirk" Date: 16 Feb 89 06:26:00 GMT I just found an interesting quirk w/ MS Windows/386 that might be of use to someone out there. Namely, I was trying to run WIN386 on an IBM PS/2 80, and Windows would drop back to DOS immediately after flashing the blue welcome screen. Nothing I tried could get it to run, until I pulled the battery to erase the previous user's power-up password. Magically, Windows/386 ran fine after that, to my amazement. ( & befuddlement.) You just never know... Don Meyer meyer@s.cs.uiuc.edu ------------------------------ From: moll@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU (Rick Moll) Subject: Use of BIOS in 386 mode Date: 20 Feb 89 07:23:11 GMT Can a program running in paged/protected 386 mode still make use of the BIOS routines, which are presumably 8086 code, to service I/O interrupts? If so, how is it done? I have a CSS 80386 motherboard with an Award BIOS and some vanilla AT type devices (EGA, Seagate 251, etc.). I was thinking of playing with some standalone 386 programs and wondered if I'd have to write my own low-level I/O. If it isn't possible for me to use the BIOS, where do I get documentation on low-level operation of the I/O devices (register addresses and layouts, function codes, etc.)? I'll be grateful for any advice. -- Richard J. Moll ...rutgers!umn-cs!moll moll@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu ------------------------------ From: mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Use of BIOS in 386 mode Date: 20 Feb 89 14:57:00 GMT >Can a program running in paged/protected 386 mode still make use of >the BIOS routines, which are presumably 8086 code, to service I/O >interrupts? If so, how is it done? Actually running in 386 mode? No. On the other hand, if you didn't REALLY mean "standalone" but would be happy to run 386 programs under DOS, it can easily be done. Among others, Phar Lap software will sell you a `something' (software) which will hook your genuine 386 code to DOS, and also to bios. You can use DOS calls, bios calls, and have interrupts serviced by bios, or by your 8086 code, or by your 80386 code, all your choice. I have used it and it all works. Unfortunately, the `something' comes with their assembler and costs quite a bit. Doug McDonald ------------------------------ End of 80386 M/L ****************