To: 386users@TWG.COM Subject: 80386 mailing list, vol 4 #23 Date: 4 Apr 89 07:05:22 EST (Tue) From: "Wm E. Davidsen Jr" 80386 User's mailing list vol 4 #23 April 4, 1989 In this issue: 20/25 MHz 386 386 UNIX DMA Re: 386^MAX (and others) experiences (was Re: 386^max questions) Re: 386^max questions [ 3 msgs ] For Sale : Concurrent DOS 386 Hi-res video and Windows 386 ? Hi-res mode and Windows 386... Re: MS Windows /286 + 386-to-max My New 386 Clone (from HQ Computers) [ 2 msgs ] Possible Bugs in SCO Xenix 386 (V2.2.3) pipes? Upgrading PC-AT with 80386 motherboard. The addresses for the list are now: 386users@TWG.COM - for contributions to the list or ...!uunet!TWG.COM!386users 386users-request@TWG.COM - for administrivia or ...!uunet!TWG.COM!386users-request P L E A S E N O T E If you want to get on or off the list, or change your address, please mail to the 386users-request address, or the message will be delayed by having to hand forward it (for your convenience, not mine). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pthiesse@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Paul Thiessen) Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA Subject: 20/25 MHz 386 Date: 30 Mar 89 04:20:06 GMT Hello. I'm planning to buy a 20 or 25 MHz 386 PC clone. All I need is the box, the CPU, memory, drive controller, and one 5.25" 1.2 MB floppy. I have the rest. Does anyone have any strong recommendations? Or info on what not to buy? I'd appreciate any answers, and I'll post a summary of info I get if asked. Please respond via e-mail. Thanks! Paul Thiessen pthiesse@jarthur.claremont.edu ...!uunet!jarthur!pthiesse pthiessen@hmcvax.bitnet ------------------------------ From: gatech!ucsd!ETN-WLV.EATON.COM!wlbr!etn-rad!jru (John Unekis) Eaton Inc. IMSD, Westlake Village, CA Subject: 386 UNIX DMA Date: 30 Mar 89 02:12:23 GMT Perhaps some knowledgeable soul out there could help us with a rather vexing problem. We are trying to add devices to a workstation computer using the intel 386 processor and the ISC UNIX operating system (386/ix). Twice now we have purchased Beta-test versions of device drivers which would not work on our system. In both cases the devices being driven exchanged data and control info through PIO addresses instead of memory addresses. In both cases the drivers attempt to do DMA transfers to the PIO addresses and can not accomplish this. In both cases the drivers seem to work if the I/O is done using byte-at-a-time OUT's instead of DMA, but the throughput is 1/10 the DMA rate and is unacceptable. Also, in both cases the drivers were developed on AT&T 386 machines. In both cases the companies involved claim that the drivers work 'just fine' on their AT&T machines. We have tried them on two 386 boards, the Sigma Designs and the Texas Microsystems with no success. Does anyone out there know anything about the DMA on the AT&T boards? Is it somehow non-standard? Are the other two 386 boards non-standard? Has anyone else had a problem with drivers developed on an AT&T machine not working on other processors? Was it resolved? Any help is appreciated. {ihnp4 or voder or jplgodo}!wlbr!etn-rad!jru ------------------------------ From: marco@hpmcaa.HP.COM (Marco Dalla-Gasperina) HP McMinville Division Subject: Re: 386^MAX (and others) experiences (was Re: 386^max questions) Date: 28 Mar 89 16:35:14 GMT What about using 386load &&/|| 386^max with smartdrv and himem.sys? What happens if your computer swaps the bios out to ram? (on mine I can turn this feature off...) marco marco@hmpcaa ------------------------------ From: alanr@tekigm2.MEN.TEK.COM (Alan Rovner) Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or. Subject: Re: 386^max questions Date: 27 Mar 89 19:48:57 GMT In article <1070@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov>, raymond@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (Eric A. Raymond) writes: > How much memory does 386^max and 386load take up (from your 640k)? > Are they compatible with programs that backfill low memory into your > 640K? (i.e. memory below video adapter is added to 640k). > 386^max on my system takes about 88K but this is in high memory. In low memory it does take up some space but if I remember it's pretty insignif- icant. Same for 386load I believe. Al Rovner, Tektronix Inc. Vancouver, Wash. ------------------------------ From: steinmetz!uunet!microsoft!leefi Subject: Re: 386^max questions Date: Wed Mar 29 20:01:46 1989 > From: marco@hpmcaa.HP.COM (Marco Dalla-Gasperina) > Subject: 386^max questions In "80386 User's mailing list" 4.22, Marco Dalla-Gasperina (marco@hpmcaa.hp.com) asks if Qualitas' 386^max can be used with lots of things. One of these was Microsoft's HIMEM.SYS; Himem is an XMM (eXtended Memory Manager), and so is 386^max. Thus, if using 386^max, you don't need to run Himem, as 386^max should provide all of the XMM functionality. Also asked was if 386^max works with Microsoft's SMARTDRV.SYS; SmartDrive is a disk cache which uses extended or expanded memory. I don't see any reason why SmartDrive could not be used with 386^max. My $00.02, to be taken with a grain of salt, since I've never used 386^max (but I do use Himem and SmartDrive)... ;-) -- Lee Fisher, leefi@microsoft.com.UUCP, leefi%microsoft@uw-beaver.MIL, {uw-beaver,decvax,decwrl,intelca,sun,tikal,uunet}!microsoft!leefi leefi@microsoft.beaver.washington.EDU, Compu$erve: 72357,1451 Don't blame my employer for any of this, its all my opinion. ------------------------------ From: "Joseph A. Cimmino Jr." Subject: Re: 386^max questions Date: Fri, 31 Mar 89 02:51:59 EST > From: alanr@tekigm2.MEN.TEK.COM (Alan Rovner) > Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or. > Subject: Re: 386^max questions > Date: 24 Mar 89 03:05:29 GMT > 386^max only works with TSR's and other memory resident programs, however. > In order to move device drivers (DEVICE=xxx.SYS) out of base memory you > need 386load which is sold as a separate program. For some odd reason, > before they will sell you 386load they want to know your serial number for > 386^max. I guess this is because 386load can't run without 386^max already > loaded. All in all, it's a good product. Thanks. The reason for the serial number is correct. 386LOAD is only sold as a companion to 386MAX. > ------------------------------ > From: raymond@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (Eric A. Raymond) > NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA > Subject: Re: 386^max ques> tions > Date: 24 Mar 89 23:23:34 GMT > How much memory does 386^max and 386load take up (from your 640k)? > Are they compatible with programs that backfill low memory into your > 640K? (i.e. memory below video adapter is added to 640k). 386MAX takes 60 bytes of memory in the 0-640k region, about three and one half K from HIGH-DOS (640k to 1M) and uses extended (above 1M) for the rest of it's storage. 386LOAD itself doesn't take any memory. As far as working with backfilling programs, depends on the program. Note that 386MAX will also backfill from top of system board memory to bottom of video adapter memory, so one solution is to let MAX do the job. > ------------------------------ > From: marco@hpmcaa.HP.COM (Marco Dalla-Gasperina) > HP McMinville Division > Subject: 386^max questions > Date: 20 Mar 89 16:31:10 GMT > The problem is, I have expanded memory so I don't need an EMM emulator and > I'd still love to use my extended memory as a cache to improve my windows > performance. > (Windows works much better with Expanded memory and a disk cache). > My current config is to let windows use all 2M of expanded memory for its > own use (i.e. nothing else is using it) and 2M of extended as SmartDrive (+ > the 64k used by HIMEM.SYS). > Can I still use 386^max? Yes, with 386MAX set for EMS=0, it will work with the EMS driver that supports your 2M of expanded. It will manage your 2M of extended and provide the HMA support that HIMEM.SYS provides, that is, it will replace HIMEM.SYS. > Does 386^max come with a windows compatible disk cache? No, MAX doesn't come with a disk cache. We suggest SuperPCKwick. +----------------------------- Joseph A. Cimmino, Jr. Qualitas, Inc. jac@umd5.umd.edu +1 301 469 8848 Bertolt Brecht: You made your bed, so you lie in it. ------------------------------ From: c184-au@holden.Berkeley.EDU (Dan Filner) University of California, Berkeley Subject: For Sale : Concurrent DOS 386 Date: 29 Mar 89 20:36:19 GMT For Sale : Digital Research's Concurrent DOS 386 v2.0 (3-User version) comes with 5.25 and 3.5" disks brand new, unopened, shrinkwrapped list price $395 mail order $250-$300 asking $200. (It's stamped not for export to Middle East,Europe, or S. Africa, so spies and other bad guys need not inquire) Thanks, Dan Filner ------------------------------ From: Dan Ts'o Subject: Hi-res video and Windows 386 ? Date: Tue, 4 Apr 89 02:59:44 EDT Subject: Hi-res mode and Windows 386... Newsgroups: comp.windows.ms,comp.sys.ibm.pc I'm planning to get a 386 machine with a Hi-res video card/monitor (800x600 or 1024x768). I would like to run Windows 386. Many of the program I'll run are standard apps (i.e. not Windows programs, just ordinary MESSDOS programs). I want to know if I can run several of these programs simultaneously such that each will have a substantially, if not completely unobscured standard text display window. That is, more than one complete 80x25 text window. To make it even clearer: a standard EGA display has 640x350 pixels. This EGA display can display one full text screen of 80x25 (actually even 80x43). Since 1024x768 can swallow two complete EGA pixels-worth with room to spare, I would hope that such a Hi-res display can give you at least two if not more full 80x25 text windows for 2 or more standard apps (non-Windows) programs. Will Windows 386 do this ? (I have heard "support engineers" grumble that standard apps programs use the "system font" and thus cannot be squeezed into small windows with small fonts... grumble, grumble...) Please email responses. Thanks. Cheers, Dan Ts'o 212-570-7671 Dept. Neurobiology dan@rna.rockefeller.edu Rockefeller Univ. ...cmcl2!rna!dan 1230 York Ave. rna!dan@nyu.edu NY, NY 10021 tso@rockefeller.arpa tso@rockvax.bitnet ------------------------------ From: moss@ttidcb.tti.com (Les Moss) Citicorp/TTI, Santa Monica Subject: Re: MS Windows /286 + 386-to-max Date: 28 Mar 89 17:41:46 GMT I use MS Windows 286 with 386 MAX on a 386 clone. I have to do this because Sigma Designs does not yet have a 386 driver for my Laserview monitor. This setup works well but Windows 386 gives better support for standard DOS applications. -- Les Moss Citicorp TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 452-9191, ext. 2982 Santa Monica, CA 90405 moss@ttidca.tti.com ------------------------------ From: forrest@sybase.com Sybase, Inc. Subject: My New 386 Clone (from HQ Computers) Date: 28 Mar 89 17:08:33 GMT Last week I posted a summary of the 386 clone I was going to buy. To summarize, I got a DataExpert 386 motherboard (C&T chipset, 20 MHZ 386, 387 and Weitek support, upto 8Megs of memory on the motherboard, 25 MHZ Turbo Mode, AMI BIOS) 4 Megs of Memory (36 80-nsec Siemens 1 Mbit chips) Adaptec 2322 ESDI controller Fujitsu 150 Mbyte ESDI disk Maxiswitch 101 key keyboard Teac 1.2 Mbyte floppy I/O card (1 serial, 1 parallel, 1 game) All this for $3079 (!!) which is a great price. As I pointed out, I got the last of the Fuji ESDI disks HQ had in stock so don't expect to get a similar system. Well, last Saturday I drove down to Sunnyvale to pick up the system. HQ is what I expect is a typical clone house. It has a front office where there are desks and some demo systems. The rest of the place is a large room where all the systems are assembled. There were about 10 systems in the process of being put together and tested. Although HQ uses many Taiwanese components, they also have a fair number of name brand components, such as NEC, Fuji, Adaptec, DTC, Siemens, and others. (I've found that most Taiwanese components these days are pretty good and don't consider them a major drawback.) My system was set up and ready when I arrived. I had asked them to leave it open so I could take a look inside and also so I could put in a Hercules clone board I had been using in the XT clone I'm getting rid of. One minor problem that came up right away was that my Hercules clone board was slightly too long for the 8 bit slots in the HQ system. The same board fit fine in my Leading Edge Model M. However, I was able to put it in by not putting one end in the edge director. The board works fine this way. I don't consider this to be an HQ problem. The hard drive was setup as 5 32 Mbyte partitions. I don't know what I'm going to do with all this diskspace. I ran the CORETEST program which showed a 25msec seek time and a data transfer rate of 1Mbyte/sec. Needless to say, I'm extremely pleased with this disk drive. After getting home I ran all the software I had been running on my old PC and everything ran fine. I'm using the RAMDRIVE.SYS ram disk and the PC-Kwik disk cache running in extended memory. Having a 1 Mbyte disk cache and ram disk is great! Compiling and linking the BGIDEMO.C program in Turbo C (~1500 lines) takes about 3 seconds. I'll be running other benchmarks to see how the system compares with other 386 clones. I don't have any of the Unix versions for the 386 so I have no idea how (or if) Unix works on my system. I'm going to wait for S5R4 before buying Unix for it. Everybody at HQ was very nice and professional. I had especially good dealings with Echo Tsai, the salesperson I dealt with. She seemed very honest and interested in making sure I got what I wanted and was happy. My only concerns now are: The technician, in response to my question, told me that the AMI BIOS was the latest rev (2/89). However, various utilities tell me that the BIOS is dated 9/88. I don't know if this is important. I think the technician just made a mistake. So far, everything seems to run just fine. I am concerned about any damage that could occur to any of the 20 MHZ components on the motherboard when they are run at 25 Mhz. What I'll do about this until I find out for sure is to keep the system running at 20 MHZ until I'm doing something CPU intensive. I'll certainly keep it at 20 MHZ when I've left the computer running while I'm doing something else. Although I've had a very positive experience in dealing with HQ, I'm worried about getting problems fixed on the motherboard should HQ go out of business (which I very much hope they don't). Although the board uses the Chips and Technology chipset, who knows how standard everything else is. I did look at a motherboard and noticed that there were no jumper wires which is a good sign. I do wish I had more information about the C&T setup program that you can run when you boot up. Since they don't have any more Fuji disk drives, should something happen to mine I'm not sure what they would replace mine with. With the possible exception of the first item, I already knew about all these problems before I bought my system, so I don't consider them HQ's fault. As of now, none of these are very serious. HQ Computers is at 485 Macara Ave., Suite 904, in Sunnyvale. Their phone number is 408-245-5836. I have no connection with them of any kind other than as a customer. Based on my experiences with them so far I wouldn't hesitate to do business with them again. Jon Forrest forrest@sybase.com {pacbell,pyramid,sun,{uunet,ucbvax}!mtxinu}!sybase!forrest 415-596-3422 ------------------------------ From: phil@diablo.AMD.COM (Phil Ngai) Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. Sunnyvale CA Subject: Re: My New 386 Clone (from HQ Computers) Date: 29 Mar 89 22:06:54 GMT In article <3546@sybase.sybase.com> forrest@sybase.com writes: |Last week I posted a summary of the 386 clone I was going to buy. We bought almost exactly the same system, and dealt with the same person (Echo). The price is very attractive and the system works very well. |386 clones. I don't have any of the Unix versions for the 386 so |I have no idea how (or if) Unix works on my system. I'm going |to wait for S5R4 before buying Unix for it. We run Interactive Unix and it seems to work. | I am concerned about any damage that could occur to any of | the 20 MHZ components on the motherboard when they are run at | 25 Mhz. What I'll do about this until I find out for sure is I think you've been listening to people who don't know what they're talking about. It is true that most chips run hotter when they are clocked faster. It is not true that a chip rated at 20 MHz and run at 25 MHz will have a shorter life than a chip rated at 25 and run at 25. It is true that a chip rated at 20 and run at 25 may not be reliable at 25. But if you run that chip at 25 and find it doesn't work at 25, that chip will not have been damaged and will run just as well at 20 as it ever did. This seems to be another urban legend. -- Phil Ngai, phil@diablo.amd.com {uunet,decwrl,ucbvax}!amdcad!phil "In California, the reward for saving water is a lower quota." ------------------------------ From: brianw@hpausla.HP.COM (Brian Wallis) HP Australian Software Operation Subject: Possible Bugs in SCO Xenix 386 (V2.2.3) pipes? Date: 28 Mar 89 07:12:12 GMT Does anyone know of errors in the pipe() implementation in SCO Xenix 386 V 2.2.3. I have a friend trying to get the ACSnet software (this is the news/mail networking software of choice in Australia) to work reliably on his 386AT and there seems to be some problem with pipes. The problem manifests itself in that some of the data written to the pipe is being read twice by the reading process. The writing process writes words (ascii) seperated by spaces followed by a NULL to signify end of message. The reading process reads single characters up to a NULL and then processes the message. (This is the interface between NNcall and it's modem dialing program) The writes and reads are done using write(2) and read(2). The occurence of the bug is random. The software is compiled without optimization. Ring any bells with anyone? Any help will save my friends sanity. (and after the obscure cron bug, he hasn't much of that left!) ------------------------------ From: ralphc@tekcae.CAX.TEK.COM (Ralph Carpenter) Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or. Subject: Upgrading PC-AT with 80386 motherboard. Date: 31 Mar 89 04:12:17 GMT I have just finished upgrading two 80286 based AT Clones to 80386- 20mhz systems. I'll be doing a third one in a week or so. Only the motherboards were changed, although we are now considering swapping out our 1:3 interleave for faster 1:1 hard disk controllers. Everything has gone very well, it took a screwdriver and 30 minutes (I watched it done once before) per system. See notes below for a description. No hassles, really, the hardest part was deciding what and where to buy. We settled on a Mylex MI386-20 board with 64k static cache ($1225), and 4mb SIMM memory ($870). Steve Gibson, the InfoWorld columnist, gave Mylex motherboards a great review a few months ago. Not the cheapest board, but a high quality American made unit for little more than the cheapest boards, which aren't cache designs. The board supplier's memory price was so good (price and availability better than the memory chip manufacturer would give me) that we upgraded to 8mb. Tektronix is almost within shouting distance of a Mylex supplier, (MicroSource Distributors) so we got an evaluation unit to test for function and compatibility. I tried Compaq DOS 3.2, MS-DOS 4.01, IBM OS/2 Extended Edition version 1.1, and OS/2 Sidekick without a glitch. The EMM386 driver that comes with DOS 4.01 turned the extended memory into expanded just as I had hoped. All my current DOS based applications, including some finicky ones, seem to work very well. While some of you may have access to more extensive software test libraries, I don't. But, after reading some reviews of other clone boards, I was pleased to see OS/2 EE work. The BIOS is quite full featured and does nice things. I've never seen a BIOS give me the option to test the hard disk for the optimum interleave and then format it like this one does. The reason I am posting this review is simply to pass along the results of lots of reading, phone calls to manufacturers and suppliers, and how easy it was to change motherboards. I have no connection with MicroSource, other than as a satisfied customer. Mylex motherboards are available from several sources who advertise in the computer trade magazines, but if you are interested (and to save me from responding individually), my supplier's phone is 503+645-1490. They also have an 800 number you can get from 800 information. Swapping an AT mother board may not always be this easy, but here's what I had to do: (Make note = written notes w/ picture) 1) Using the setup program for my computer, I found out what NUMBER my hard drive type is. This is a number between 1 and 47 or so that tells the BIOS how many heads and cylinders the hard drive has. The new motherboard won't know, and NOTHING WORKS if I couldn't tell it what the drive type is. 2) I Disconnected all external cabling from the back of the box: power, keyboard, printer, etc. 3) After all the touching of the metal case, I was discharged of any static charges already, but FORGETTING to discharge myself again after shuffling in and out of the area before finishing the job wouldn't have been wise. 4) I opened the case - 5 screws. 5) I took out the screws holding the video, etc. cards in place. Removed the cards from their slots in the motherboard. I DID NOT remove any ribbon cables from these cards unless I carefully made note of the position and orientation of the cables. I didn't have to undo ANY cables to unplug the cards. 6) I made note of the position and orientation of the two power supply cables. Unplugged them from the motherboard. 7) I made note of the speaker and disk light connector wires, then unplugged them from the motherboard and hard disk controller board. 8) I undid the two screws that held down the old motherboard. 9) The motherboard was now free, so I *gently* slid it out. 10)There were some white plastic spacers that plugged into holes in the motherboard that had to be moved to the equivalent holes in the 386 board. 11)I put the new board in where the old one was. 12)I put everything back in place, except for the case. 13)I powered it up, used the built in setup program to tell the BIOS what hard drive type was. 14) That's it. Everything ran for me. I put the case on. Norton SI = 23. NOTE: This is for information only. Your mileage may vary, etc. Ralph Carpenter ralphc@tekcae.CAX.TEK.COM 2nd Disclaimer: Nothing in this posting implies that TEKTRONIX endorses my opinions. ------------------------------ End of 80386 M/L ****************