Date: Tue, 18 Jul 89 09:26:40 EDT From: Wm E Davidsen Jr <386users@crdos1.crd.ge.com> To: 386users@TWG.COM Subject: 80386 mailing list, vol 5 #1 80386 User's mailing list vol 5 #01 Jul 18, 1989 In this issue: SCO & T5100 '386 Caching Motherboards '386 questions: price, cacheing, un*x [ 2 msgs ] 2 hard disks/2 floppies, dos and xenix 386 SX motherboards 386 motherboards and cases 386 questions (specific machines) 386/376 Development Tools 386SX vs 386 Re: 486 and 860 documentation 80386 Mother Boards, XT form factor... The addresses for the list are now: 386users@TWG.COM - for contributions to the list or ...!uunet!TWG.COM!386users 386users-request@TWG.COM - for administrivia or ...!uunet!TWG.COM!386users-request P L E A S E N O T E If you want to get on or off the list, or change your address, please mail to the 386users-request address, or the message will be delayed by having to hand forward it (for your convenience, not mine). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark Delany (mdelany@hbapn1.prime.com) Subject: SCO & T5100 Date: 3 Jul 1989 (10:56) Hello 386ers, I know this question has been asked before, but the archives didn't show any responses, so if you don't mind... Simple question: Does SCO Xenix (386 version) run on the T5100? What problems, if any were associated with it (in other words do all the bits work!) Please email responses direct to me pls as my registeration for this group is "in the mail". If response prove generally interesting I will summarize and post. Thanks and regards, Mark D. ------------------------------ From: terry@eecea.eece.ksu.edu (Terry Hull) Kansas State University, Manhattan Subject: '386 Caching Motherboards Date: 20 Jun 89 20:19:19 GMT I posted a request for experiences with '386 Mylex and Micronics motherboards, and I received several interesting replies, so I thought I'd forward the information to the net. I'd also like to thank the folks who took the time to share their knowledge. First though, I'd like to share something that was pointed out to my by Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.mcs.com). He told me there was a problem with intellignet serial cards and Ethernet cards in cached machines. The cache controller intercepts the reads and writes destined for the intelligent board, and that causes the board to either behave eratically or not at all. After all, the cache controller does not expect the contents of "memory" to change by itself. This is only a problem with boards that use a memory window in high memory. If the board's address space is between 640K and 1 MB, the reads and writes will bypass the cache so the board will work. This information was confirmed by Greg Fox at DigiBoard. -- From: chip@vector.dallas.tx.us (Chip Rosenthal) No direct experience, but vector is based on the 20MHz Micronics motherboard. The only problem I've had is that the supplied (Phoenix) in-BIOS setup program is incompatible with my Everex EGA card. I need to boot DOS and use the disk-based SETUP program instead. A while back, somebody posted some comparison numbers showing that the main memory cacheing is a win. Unfortunately, I didn't save the message and I don't recall who did it. ---- From: convex!williams@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Bradley Williams) I have a Micronics 25Mhz board. I only run MSDOS at this time as I am a relative novice to the PC world. I find it runs OK and does use the cache quite well, although a 387 will make a bigger impact overall. I run an Adaptec AHA1542 for SCSI disk and normal floppy interface. This card runs the motherboard in "bus master" mode and has no problem. The 20Mhz 386 from Micronics will not. I got 4Mb of RAM and the 25Mhz board from a local outfit for $2250. Is this too high or am I missing something? After all is does 7.6MIPS and 1835 MFLOPS and NI=21. A diag package comes with the board and allows the software to switch the board to 6Mhz, 8Mhz or 25Mhz. The cache is switchable from software or the "turbo" switch. Also included is a BIOS to RAM copy routine that will speed some things up. The CACHE is controlled by the Intel chip (80285?) and comes with a single bank of RAM, with sockets for more to run in "two way associative". See the 285 for more information. The 387 socket can support Weitek and has crystal and jumper to run async. I am still learning this stuff and have lots to learn. I have never been crazy about Intel processors or addressing, but I am learning. Seems like about a month ago someone mentioned Mylex and did not say anything bad about it. ------- From: pmafire!dave@uunet.UU.NET I have a Mylex, and it beats the pants off a non-cached machine; probably the only faster machines are the Dell and the Everex Step. While I'm running Microport 3.0e, I suspect that the the increased speed will still be there under Xenix (as far as I know, the only way to turn off the cache is in hardware). If you're really after overall speed, get either a 15MHz ESDI disk (CDC preferably) or a SCSI disk and controller; looks like the DPT controller is a winner as well, with lots of RAM on it. Not cheap, though....... ------ From: voder!lynx!m5@apple.com (Mike McNally) I've never seen the Micronics 25Mhz board, but after fooling with a 20Mhz system from them I don't have much faith in them. We noticed several compatibility problems with the backplane design. It's cache is smaller than that of the Mylex, and it makes a difference. Cache has a big impact on performance. If you're bothering to buy a 25Mhz machine, it's worth it to get the extra benefit of the cache. In fact, I'd guess that a 20Mhz Mylex with a cache would come close in performance (certainly price/performance) to a 25Mhz machine without a cache. ------ From: jim@tiamat.fsc.com (Jim O'Connor) Terry, The Micronics MB (20MHz) that came in my portable seems to be pretty good. The only weird thing is that the 32bit RAM board is in the second to last card position, instead of the last card position (away from the power supply) as I've seen in most others. Micronics has several memory board options, so be careful that you get the memory board that will give you the RAM expansion that you want. AMI also has a 20MHz board available. I don't know the price, but I can get it for you when I'm back in my office. Both the AMI and Micronics boards exhibit the "10 bits of I/O address decoding" behavior, which causes problems with some I/O boards (in particular, a Logitech bus mouse :-). -------- From: ksuvax1!rutgers!att.att.com!twitch!rvk an economic problem you might have with a fast motherboard and no cache is that all your memory has to be fast. this is expensive if you have a large amount of memory. it might turn out that your overall cost is higher by not having a cache. ---- From: ficc!karl@uunet.uu.net Terry, I have had two Mylex 16 Mhz motherboards running System V/3, each with 64 KB of 40 ns cache and 4 MB of on-board RAM, for over a year with no problems or complaints. My system is largely I/O bound when it is really busy, based on reports by sar. I don't know how much premium there is for 25 MHz systems; my boards were only $1000 each, albeit with a 4 for 1 trade of my 256 Kbit DRAM to the dealer for megabit DRAMs for the motherboard. Anyway, they've been fine boards...thought you might like to know. ------- From: harvard!frog!barr@gatech.edu (Chris Barr) Both Mylex & Micronics have been eclipsed by AMI in the marketplace, i.e. system vendors who used their boards @ 16/20 MHz moved to AMI for 25/33 MHz. Micronics uses a single crystal instead of a separate one for AT-compatible BUS (not CPU) speed at 8MHz. This causes problems running cards such as 3Com Ethernet at higher speeds: they won't work. The 25 MHz MAY not have this problem (e.g. divide by 3 = 8.3 MHz, vs. divide by 2 @ 20MHz = 10). Micronics memory is 'Compaq-compatible', which means soldered chips. Mylex' memory cards may be Intel-compatible & use SIMM ram chips. Tandon uses Mylex in at least some systems. -- Terry Hull Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, Kansas State University Work: terry@eecea.eece.ksu.edu, rutgers!ksuvax1!eecea!terry Play: tah386!terry@eecea.eece.ksu.edu, rutgers!ksuvax1!eecea!tah386!terry ------------------------------ From: madd@bu-it.bu.edu (Jim Frost) Software Tool & Die Subject: Re: '386 questions: price, cacheing, un*x Date: 4 Jun 89 18:33:16 GMT In article <2021@ucsfcca.ucsf.edu> oxalis@ccb.ucsf.edu (Michael Sintchak) writes: | A related question is: what is the best memory cacheing available |(price/performance) for these '386 machines. Micro Generation's board |uses "interleaved/page memory access" - is this comparable to |cacheing? Which is better depends on your application. To give you some idea of why, what follows is a brief summary of what each does and why. Don't trust this to be completely accurate, but it should give you some idea. It's pretty easy to make generalizations as to how a program is likely to read memory. The text portion of memory is likely to be quite sequential, the data portion is likely to be localized, and the stack is very likely to be localized. With this in mind you can attempt to cut down the frequency that particular chips are accessed, cutting out wait-states. Caching is a technique where you have a (relatively) small amount of very high-speed memory which gets loaded in blocks from low-speed memory. So long as accesses fall within this cache, you get no wait-states. Cache misses are generally a little more expensive than directly accessing the slow memory would have been -- and there's also the time needed to load the cache (and other considerations), so there are tradeoffs. Since code and stack are usually very localized (especially when high-level languages such as Pascal and C are used), cache memory tends to work very well. Interleaving is a technique where sequential memory locations are spread amongst multiple chips. Four-way interleaving would give you four locations in a row which may be accessed sequentially with no waiting, after which the first bank would probably be ready to be accessed again. If your code is very sequential, interleaving is very good. Even if it is not sequential, you have at least a 1 in 4 chance (in my example) of getting a "ready" memory location. At worst case interleaved memory works no worse than straight memory. Generally interleaved systems don't work as well as cached ones, but it depends on your application. Personally I like cached memory systems, but they tend to be more expensive than interleaved (they are more difficult to make and also require some amount of high-speed memory) so it's another tradeoff. For better discussions, you should look in back issues of PC-oriented magazines right around the time the 80386 machines were starting to come out. I recall several excellent articles, although I cannot remember which specific magazines they were in. Check out "PC Magazine" back-issues, I'm pretty sure they had one of those articles. | My final question is about memory. How much memory will I need on |a '386 machine to run some form of un*x? What is the cheapest form of |un*x that runs on the '386 platform? If I get a cheap un*x, will I be |able to run something like X windows on it (if yes, how much more |memory would I need)? How much you need depends on which UNIX you want to run and what you want to do with it. XENIX will run with 2Mb of memory (so the docs say), although I'd say that you really want 4Mb if you're doing development. I haven't tried X Windows under it so I can't help there. Interactive's 386/ix (my favorite of the SysV versions and which I like better than XENIX) needs at least 4Mb (I guess it'll run with less but it won't be fun). If you're running only a single user without X Windows this will work fine. If you're running X (they have probably the best 386 X product there is, excluding those with hardware assist) then you want 6-8Mb, with 8 highly recommended. Running X with 4Mb works but it is constantly swapping so performance is poor. If you would like additional information, feel free to email me. jim frost madd@bu-it.bu.edu ------------------------------ From: oxalis@ccb.ucsf.edu (Michael Sintchak) UCSF, Computer Center Subject: '386 questions: price, cacheing, un*x Date: 3 Jun 89 00:04:01 GMT Hi, I am looking for any information people have dealing with the company Micro Generation (a division of Continental Technology). In this months computer shopper they offer what appears to be a great deal - a 33.6 MHz '386 base system for only $1795. If anybody has recently gotten one of these systems or any system from Micro Generation please email me your opinions. A related question is: what is the best memory cacheing available (price/performance) for these '386 machines. Micro Generation's board uses "interleaved/page memory access" - is this comparable to cacheing? Also, I see that some boards advertise an 80387 socket, others an 80387/80287 socket. Will I be able to use my 80287 or does it depend on the BIOS on the motherboard? My final question is about memory. How much memory will I need on a '386 machine to run some form of un*x? What is the cheapest form of un*x that runs on the '386 platform? If I get a cheap un*x, will I be able to run something like X windows on it (if yes, how much more memory would I need)? Thanks in advance for your help. -- Mike. ================================= Mike Sintchak (oxalis@ccb.ucsf.edu) Dept. of Pharm. Chem. - UC San Francisco ================================= ------------------------------ From: conan@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (Robert B Carroll) University of Delaware Subject: 2 hard disks/2 floppies, dos and xenix Date: 16 Jun 89 02:20:48 GMT I'm in the process of setting up a 386 machine to run MS-DOS and Xenix. I plan to use the following disk drive setup: western digital controller(controls 2 floppies and 2 hard disks) can't remember model #. seagate model 4096(something like that) 80Mb hard disk for xenix 30-40 Mb hard disk for ms-dos 1.2 Mb 5 1/4 floppy 1.44 Mb 3 1/2 floppy My questions are: 1) will there be any problems handling the hard disks/ controller for dos or xenix? 2) will the 1.2 Mb floppy read/write/format 360K disks? 3) will the 1.44 Mb drive read/write/format 720K floppies? Any help would be appreciated. I have my reasons for this setup. I may change it depending on the answers of the above questions. please send email to: -- conan@vax1.acs.udel.edu OR conan@192.5.57.1 CONAN THE BARBARIAN of Cimmeria ------------------------------ From: jbayer@ispi.UUCP (Jonathan Bayer) Intelligent Software Products, Inc. Subject: 386 SX motherboards Date: 5 Jul 89 20:58:01 GMT On June 30, I sent out the following request for information on 386sx motherboards. }Greetings, netlanders. } }My brother (who is not on the net) is currently looking for a 386sx }motherboard to replace an old 286 board. He is looking for the }following: } } 1. 386 sx } 2. Able to take 256 as well as 1 meg simms } 3. Able to run MS-DOS, Unix, SCO Xenix } }It would be nice for it to fit into a baby-AT case, but that is not }absolutely necessary. } }Please e-mail, I will summarize if there is any interest (or responses), }also I do not get all of the newsgroups this is being posted to. } }Thank you in advance. } } }JB I have received the following replies (slightly edited): >From John H. Lawitzke: }From: uunet!frith!frith.egr.msu.edu!dale1!jhl } } }The company I work for sells 386SX motherboards. They: } }have 8 SIMM slots and can take 256K or 1M SIMMs }I've personally used it with both MS-DOS v3.3 and SCO XENIX 386 v2.3.1 } }Our motherboards are all designed and tested inhouse. } }It is a 16MHz board with no cache. According to the Byte low level }benchmarks, the Compaq 386SX machine is a 1.86 and ours rates a 2.03. } }The board itself can replace an XT motherboard. I had a vanilla IBM PC/XT }at home which I've successfully upgraded with the sx board. } }I have no idea what they sell for. I work in R&D and am far away from the }day to day business details. For pricing info or glossies call }(517)349-0200 and ask for someone in sales. Our company is mainly }oriented towards selling to VARs and VADs, but the board sounds like }what you're looking for, so it's worth a shot. >From Kevin Allred: }From: uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!allred (Kevin L. Allred) } }I'm looking to get a 386SX too. I don't even have a 286 now, but I }can tell you what I have found out. Mylex, just started making an SX }motherbord. I called one of the distributers just this morning, and }they haven't received any yet. They told me the price will be even lower }than the one quoted in their add in the back of PCweek. The price I }was quoted is $465 0K -- $200 per meg of 256k 100ns SIMMS -- $720 per }4 meg of 1Mb 100ns SIMMS. The board will hold 8 SIMMS total added in }sets of 4 -- 1MB, 2MB, 4MB, 5MB, and 8MB. The company is: } }MicroSource Distributors }1-800-326-4276 } }I also got info from: } }HOMESMART COMPUTING }Houston, TX }1-800-627-6998 } }Their 386SX motherboard is $595 0K. and holds only 2MB max with 256x4 }dips. It takes a special memory card -- $100+ -- to be able to go up }to 8MB. I wounder if they will lower their prices when they find out }about the Mylex board. } >From Randy Jarrett: }From: uunet!cs.utexas.edu!gatech.edu!wa4mei!rsj (Randy Jarrett WA4MEI) } } }There is a company in Marietta Georgia by the name of Peripherial Technology, }Inc. that has some high speed 286 boards and 386sx systems. I don't have their }address but the phone number is (404) 984-0742. Ask for Fredrick Brown and tell }him that I sent you. >From bill davidsen: } }From: uunet!crdgw1.crd.ge.com!davidsen (William E. Davidsen Jr) } }WAVE-MATE is an old company (I bought S-100 stuff from them) which now }offers a 386-SX board. They advertize in _Info World_ and prices run }from $800/0MB to $1300/4MB. I haven't tried this product, but I have }been satisfied with their previous products. Thank you all for your replies. JB -- Jonathan Bayer Beware: The light at the end of the Intelligent Software Products, Inc. tunnel may be an oncoming dragon 500 Oakwood Ave. ...uunet!ispi!root Roselle Park, NJ 07204 (201) 245-5922 jbayer@ispi.UUCP ------------------------------ From: chris@conexch.UUCP (Chris Bailey) The Consultants' Exchange, Orange County, CA Subject: 386 motherboards and cases Date: 9 Jul 89 19:47:57 GMT Help! I need a source for really cheap 386 motherboards and computer cases (tower preferably). This can either be a retailer, or a distributor or whatever. It can be mail order or anything, I just need a cheap 386 - 16MHz motherboard. Thanx. Also any recommendations for places that are very inexpensive for all peripherals would be very helpful. I am building my own system. Thanx! Chris Bailey ------------------------------ From: dinda@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Peter Dinda) University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center Subject: 386 questions (specific machines) Date: 10 Jul 89 22:16:26 GMT Can I have some opinions on the following 386 makers and their systems? -Northgate -Zeos -Zenith -Dataworld Peter A. Dinda (also dinda@GARFIELD.cs.wisc.edu) ------------------------------ From: trm@spider.co.uk Subject: 386/376 Development Tools Date: Fri, 16 Jun 89 15:30:12 WET DST Help, Please! We bought the DOS-based Intel tools to develop "C" based embedded PROM systems for the 376/386 and now we need something that works. We are looking at Metaware High C, the PharLap Assembler/Linker and the PharLap debugger. Does anyone have any experience with this setup, or any other setup which would allow us to program 376/386 systems? We would like to hear from you. Also, if anyone knows of any Unix Based tools to do the same job (especially those with freely available source), then we would REALLY like to hear. Is the GNU compiler suitable for this type of task? The problems we are having with the Intel tools fall into the following catagories: 1: The Compiler does not separate initialised and uninitialised data (Data and BSS). 2: The compiler is full of annoying deficiencies when compared with the standard Unix compiler. 3: DB386 will only work for very small programs. Please mail responses directly to trm@spider.co.uk. Thanks in advance, Tom McBeath Software Development Manager Spider systems ------------------------------ From: kgreen@dukeac.UUCP (Kendall B Green) Academic Computing, Duke University, Durham, NC Subject: 386SX vs 386 Date: 10 Jul 89 00:07:18 GMT I have some questions on the 386SX and 386. Is the 386SX "limited" to 16 Megs of direct access memory? Considering that the 386SX systems are about $500 cheaper than 386 systems (Micro Generation ad in the current Computer Shopper), which is better for speed insensitive work? Thanks for your comments. Ken Green -- Kendall B. Green Duke University Medical Center Durham, NC 27710 kgreen@dukeac.ac.duke.edu or ...mcnc!escgate!dukeac!kgreen ------------------------------ From: prune@myrddyn.i.intel.com (Prune Wickart) Intel Corp., Development Tools, Hillsboro, OR Subject: Re: 486 and 860 documentation Date: 8 Jun 89 00:55:43 GMT jps@wucs1.UUCP (James Sterbenz) writes: >... i860 Programming Manual mentions a Hardware Reference Manual anyone know . >Also, is there a set of books out for the 486 yet (Programming,.... mch@ukc.ac.uk (Martin Howe) replies: > I should have guessed that others might also be looking unsuccessfully for > information about these chips & support. Here then is a summary of what I got: > > 860 Assembler/Linker Manual: Order #240436 > 860 Simulator/Debugger Manual: Order #240437 > 860 Programmers Reference Manual: Order #240329-002 (1989) > 860 Data Sheet Order #240296-002 (April 1989) > > 486 data sheet: Order #240440 > 486 reference manual: Order #240440 > 486 product brief Order #240459 > > INTEL LITERATURE SALES > P.O. BOX 58130 > SANTA CLARA, CA 95052-8130 +1 408-765-1909 > USA I played phone tag with a few people until I finally hit bottom on what Intel has as of today. There are three introductory packets that Intel just loves to send to interested parties. They contain the intro information stuff from above. If you want to get more involved in the i860 processor, order the appropriate manuals above. There are no corresponding manuals for the i80486 microprocessor yet; stay tuned to your local sales office for details. I have added a short description after each title, including a page count (leaving out tables of contents and other low-information pages). 386, Intel386, 80386, i386, 486, ICD-486, i486, 860, and i860 are trademarks of Intel Corporation. Order # JG-11 for the i860 chip has: no # ISSCC cover letter (no big deal) 240410 "A 1,000,000 Transistor Microprocessor" article reprint, 3 pp. 240438 "Introducing the Intel i860 64-bit Microprocessor" market o-view, 2 pp. 240455 "i860 Processor Performance" benchmark report, 13 pp. 240296 "i860 64-bit Microprocessor Advance Information" data sheet, 71 pp. Order # JG-16 for i80486 microprocessor original equipment manufacturers has: 240459 "Intel i486 Family Product Briefs", 18 pp. 240440 "i486 Microprocessor" data manual, 167 pp. 280872 "ICD-486 In-Circuit Debugger" fact sheet, 2 pp. 280871 "i486 Microprocessor Development Tools" fact sheet, 3 pp. 231998 "A Performance Report on The 386 Family of High Performance [sic], 32-bit Microprocessors" benchmark report, 14 pp + code + perf. table Order # JG-17 for i80486 microprocessor end users has: 240231 "The Intel386 Family / An Architectural Solution", 6 pp. 240373 "How to Buy a Computer for Today and Tomorrow", 3 pp. 240489 "The Emerging World of the 80386" PC Week supplement, 68 pp. - ads 240367 "32-bit Software for Intel386 Architecture", 40 pp. These are free and may be ordered from Intel Literature as shown above. The toll-free number in the US and Canada is 800-548-4725. For more information after you read any applicable publications, call your local Intel sales office. The location and number of this office may be obtained from your region's Intel headquarters: United States of America: Intel Corporation 3065 Bowers Avenue Santa Clara, CA 95051 800-548-4725 United Kingdom Intel International (U.K.) Ltd. Distribution Center Piper's Way Swindon, SN3 1RJ Wiltshire 793-696000 France Intel Corporation S.A.R.L. 1, Rue Edison, BP 303 78054 Saint-Quentin-en-Yvelines, Cedex 305-77000 Canada Intel Semiconductor of Canada, Ltd. 190 Attwell Drive, Suite 500 Rexdale, Ontario M9W 6H8 416-625-2105 (use 800-548-4725 to order literature) Hong Kong Intel Semiconductor Ltd. 10/FL East Tower, Bond Centre 89 Queensway, Central 584-44555 West Germany Intel Semiconductor GmbH Dornacher Strasse 1 8016 Feldkirchen Bei Muenchen 89-89-909920 Japan Intel Japan K.K. 5-6 Tokodai, Tsukuba-shi Ibaraki, 300-26 (check your local phone book for an Intel sales office) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: Intel pays me well for the opinions it wants; the other stuff remains mine. Some of the latter is posted; it's worth what you paid for it. Crunch all the chips you want; we'll make more. local backbone: tektronix uunet!littlei!myrddyn!prune USA phone: (503) 696-5192 prune@myrddyn.hf.intel.com ------------------------------ From: nghiem@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Alex Nghiem) The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Subject: 80386 Mother Boards, XT form factor... Date: 10 Jul 89 05:22:46 GMT I am interested in the experiences users of this group have had with XT size 80386 boards. What boards do you recommend. Any literature references? What bios should I look for. I note that many people have Micronics 80386 Boards. Is there a reason why they are popular? What about the DTK and AMI boards that sell for about $800.00. Why is it that some AMI boards appear to be OS/2 compatible but the boards with Phoenix bios have no such certification? Will OS/2 run on a DTK board. Also, I have my eyes on the new WD6VMM2 board with cache and floppy support. What size is this board (4" XT or 4.5" AT high.) Will it fit in a standard XT case? If it does not fit, which reputable hard disk/ floppy controller boards will do. Anything wrong with this controller that would explain its relatively low price? Which 1.2 and 1.44 meg floppy drives are recommended. I have my eyes on the Teacs. But, how about the Toshiba's and the Fujitsu's. Which drives have no problem writing a 360k or 720k format that can be read with a low density drive. (Have you noticed that Sony's seem overpriced.) Can anybody recommend where I can find a UL listed 200 watt FCC class B XT size power supply CHEAP? Finally, which 101 keyboards with keyclick are preferred. I have my eyes on the Chiconey's. Any others? Please send E-mail. I'll post results to the net. nghiem@walt.cc.utexas.edu !cs-utexas.edu!ut-emx!walt!nghiem ------------------------------ End of 80386 M/L ****************