Date: Wed, 19 Jul 89 02:00:04 EDT From: Wm E Davidsen Jr <386users@crdos1.crd.ge.com> To: 386users@TWG.COM Subject: 80386 mailing list, vol 5 #2 80386 User's mailing list vol 5 #02 Jul 19, 1989 In this issue: Re: 80386 mailing list, vol 4 #34 Re: 80386 mailing list, vol 4 #35 80386SX adaptercard for 80286 ATs 80x86 comments Bollus Polar 386 Can I upgrade PC/XT clone to 386(SX) machine? [ 3 msgs ] Cheap 386 Motherboards? DOS, UNIX on 80386/16 FOR SALE: Interactive 386/ix 2.01 with X Windows 11.3 The addresses for the list are now: 386users@TWG.COM - for contributions to the list or ...!uunet!TWG.COM!386users 386users-request@TWG.COM - for administrivia or ...!uunet!TWG.COM!386users-request P L E A S E N O T E If you want to get on or off the list, or change your address, please mail to the 386users-request address, or the message will be delayed by having to hand forward it (for your convenience, not mine). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Liam R. Quin" Subject: Re: 80386 mailing list, vol 4 #34 Date: Sat, 8 Jul 89 12:40:59 EDT Here are a couple of responses to Vol4 Number 35. I'm "posting" these because they might be of general interest. I could go into a lot more detail on most or all of this stuff... > From: bshafer@dunike.UUCP (Bob Shafer) > Subject: Low cost UNIX box > > We are looking for a reasonably priced UNIX box. [...] > It would be used primarily for electronic mail and file transfer using > tcp/ip over ethernet. [Initially] about 4 simultaneous users > > It would be nice if the tcp/ip implementation [...] > supported (in addition to SMTP, telnet > and ftp) the 'r' commands, (at least) a domain name service resolver and > (maybe) NFS (both client and server). > Reasonable price does not (in this case ) mean cheap. We seek reliability > a stable operating system and ease of system administration. > > [...] > What hardware? What UNIX port? What third party TCP/IP (if needed)? You could look at a Sun 386i. Clearly an interesting choice if the rest of your ethernet is stuffed full of suns! Most PC add-on cards seem to support only DOS, 386/ix and Xenix, though, so you might find yourself tied to Sun for expansion. SunOS has all the ethernet support you seem to need, although it is also rumoured that it is not entirely bug-free :-( :-( :-( :-( We (the Unixsys [note spelling] group) market a machine based on the Acer clone, in Europe. For that matter, any good 386 will do. There is an ad in Byte (International Edition at any rate) whereby you can buy a laser printer and get a free 386 clone! You will need * an intelligent I/O card * an ethernet card (obvious!) * a "32-bit" RAM expansion card, with RAM between 80 and 90 nanoseconds * a hard disc -- ESDI are the best price/performance ratio, with the trade price of a 380 MByte 14 or 16 ms. ESDI drive plus controller running at arounng UK#1000. It is not clear that the DPT cacheing controllers are a win over adding the same amount of fast memory and reconfiguring the kernel (but I have not done experiments yet). If you want a SCSI hard disk, make sure you get a 16-bit-bus-slot SCSI Host Adaptor -- the Adaptec 1450 has the widest support. Also, the only SCSI tape drive supported by 386/ix and Xenix/GT (I'll explain the GT!) is the Archive Viper, which is very fast and very expensive. So, ESDI drive + controller + tape controller + Wangtek (say) is cheaper than SCSI drive + adaptor + Archive. * sometimes you have to buy a monitor and card separately * some disk controllers drive a floppy diskette; some don't. The Acer 32/20 motherboard has a floppy controller built in, as I recall. A floppy controller will usually do two or three floppy drives. Now, a 386 Clone has a finite number of expansion slots... Also, each peripheral has to be given its own interrupt vector, DMA address, and I/O port. It is easy to run out. The commonest cause of problems in configuring unix/xenix lies here! You may have to buy different drivers for Compaq machines, so these may be worth avoiding. Xenix and 386/ix each have a different boot program for the Compaq. Software: Xenix have announced a package that includes tcp/ip support, X-windows, Ingres, and some other stuff. But they are not shipping, and it is still Xenix. Interactive seem to be trying feebly to counter this offer, and may succeed. 386/ix is very close to V.3.2; the differences are things like select() and poll() working on terminals, pttys etc., for example. The best Ethernet board around seems to be from Excelan, because it is intelligent, and takes a lot of the load off the processor. You can get the `Lan Workplace' from them (I don't know where in the States; from us :-) or from Dataguild or 5* in the UK). This gives you (looking at the manual...) ftp, telnet, arp, SMTP support, netstat, all (as far as I remember) or the `r' commands... rlogin, route (for updating the routing tables manually), rsh (but this causes problems with the System V rsh!), rwho, ruptime, etc etc., for either Xenix or for 386/ix (not the latest version). The boards are worth the price if you plan on a lot of ethernet traffic (e.g. news!). On the other hand, porting stuff to Xenix is enjoyable in the same way as shoving your feet in a microwave oven, so I have a personal preference for 386/ix. You can use much cheaper ethernet boards, but at a huge performance price. Also, ISC are shipping NFS (for their 386/ix product), but without Yellow Pages. I suspect that ISC will be one of the first to have Unix V.4 if that matters to you. SCO have said that they'll have NFS and their bag of goodies some time in the Autumn. So, Xenix --- you probably want 3rd party ethernet software, e.g. Excelan avoid XenixNet, it doesn't use standard Internet protocols, and is like NFS or RFS, but incompatible with both! You can use the smart Excelan board, which is good news. Xenix NFS Real Soon Now. 386/ix -- you probably want 386/ix "host based" tcp/ip, and you're stuck with a dumb board (flame me if I'm wrong, I'd love to know!!). 386/ix NFS is available, as is RFS. And then there was Microport (who went bust entirely in the UK, and are teetering in the States). Don't bother. We dropped it after the number of support calls was too high. There were reliability problems, the UK support wasn't (literally!), and the manuals were dreadful. For example, ``the best way to shut your computer down is simply to switch it off''. Xenix manuals are excellent for neophyte users, and the sysadm menu is a big help to administration. The manuals are not so good for some kinds of system programming (e.g. not clearly distinguishing between system calls and functions). 386/ix include some documentation, but expect you to buy the Prentice Hall AT&T manual set written especially for System V/386. These manuals are quite good in general. 386/ix sysadm is nowhere near as polished, but has pretty much the same basic functionality. Both 386/ix (1.0.6 or 2) and SCO Xenix seem pretty robust. If you need SCSI support, you have to have either 386/ix Rel. 2, or SCO Xenix/GT (available from the end of last week in the UK). Both systems include ESDI support. You will want to get intelligent I/O ports. We use Specialix, Digiboard, Corollary and Chase (the last only on the 286). The Corollory is the most expensive, and you can go up to 64 ports. This is only sensible if you are using their Attain multi-processing board. The Digiboard comes in 8-port boards, supports modem flow control, and seems reasonably good. You have to get a specially modified board to use with Acer (and some others), so say which machine you're using when you order it! The box with the ports looks very ugly, and is connected via a thick cable (up to 2km long I think) to the host. This can save costs by avoiding Ethernet Terminal Adaptors. Summary: Board: Max# Max distance Full Modem Connectors Slots Ports from CPU control? Corollary 64 1500 metres No RJ11 1 or 2 Digiboard 16? 0 Yes DB25 1/8 ports Specialix 32 2000 metres Yes DB25 1 or 2 We also tried the Computone, but it didn't work, and the Support Person in Texas was so rude I didn't bother again. I got a single 16 port board working with 386/ix in the end. We use the Hostess dumb ports with old releases of Xenix, as the driver was included. Acer themselves seem to use the Smart serial port card. Finally, a few mangled notes: * Memory You must avoid slow (90/100/120/150 ns) RAM, as it can easily add 7 wait states (!!!) You must use 32-bit RAM, even if it does sound silly! Some 386 clones (e.g. Acer) use memory interleaving at lower speeds (up to 20MHz) and all seem to use cacheing above this. Thus, if there is a cache, it is worth filling, even if it's a little expensive. You can run 386/ix or Xenix with the 1 MByte on the Acer 32/20 motherboard, although more is a big win of course. You will certainl want more, since you want to use tcp/ip, and I suggest at least 4 Mbytes of fast RAM. If you're running applications, like Uniplex, CDMS, etc., then you want more RAM. Also, each VP/ix session is at least a Megabyte, so you might want to go for an extra 8 Meg, and let Unix use the first one or two for buffers. Under 386/ix kconfig, you can "set memory parameters for the size of memory you have", and this seems worth while. The equivalent under Xenix is too complex to go into here, mail me if you need the info. * Tape (QIC24/QUC150 tape cartridges) The Wangtek drives are fine. Xenix drives them much better than 386/ix, but if you use gnu tar they go quite fast. You need a controller, and can use either Bell Tech. or Wangtek. The Everex card will drive the 150MB tape streamer under 386/ix, I am told (Thanks, Paul!). The Archive Viper SCSI tape drive is very fast if you're using SCSI. You need EPROM revision 4 or later, according to the 386/ix tape(7) page. * Disks: ESDI (or SCSI) is really worthwhile. My system at home went subjectively 4 times faster when I put the 380M ESDI drive into it. Also, the new 386ix/Xenix file system algorithms mean that a faster disk pays off a lot more, as they have increaased throughput. The 2k file system is no longer worth bothering with, I think. Even if you were pushed for money, ST506 disks are not much cheaper than ESDI, and are *much* slower. Also, check the cabinet of your machine. The older Unixsys tower held two full-height (or 4 half-height) drives, plus tape, plus floppy drive. This is more than most, though, and if you get 2 full-height drives you will probably have nightmares fitting them into the box! Of course, if you get two half-height 380 drives... you can use one for /usr/spool/news :-) :-) I don't know if any of the tcp stuff interfaces to the Internet, because the internet doesn't seem to reach to Warrington (UK)!!! [if you want to prove me wrong, I'll come and lick your toes!!! :-) :-) :-(]. I do expect that there are problems with Xenix/net, but the rest should be OK. > Thanks, > Bob Shafer Hope this helps. Lee Liam Russell Quin, utai!anduk.uucp!lee, or lee%anduk.co.uk@uu.warwick.ac.uk from within Europe > From: mikez@radix.UUCP (Mike Zuhl) > Subject: Making PC Unix much faster with 10 minutes work > > Typically, multi-speed PCs come up in slow-mode and rely on the software > to set the processor speed to fast. [...] > The fix is to > flip the speed configuration switch from "auto" to "high" speed. On some PC clones there is a light on the front to tell you the speed. "SMART" mode means to read the floppy at a slower speed. So, the boot floppy is read at the slow speed. Then Unix boots, maps out the BIOS and ignores it, and so the BIOS can never disable SMART mode. You want this for DOS programs like Lotus 1-2-3, whose copy protect (ugh) relies on a slower system clock... On the Acer 16MHz motherboard it's Switch 1-6. > A: Hardware(Basic): > > From: VIC_F_DUGURAN@cup.portal.com > Subject: Need Info on a 33MHZ PC to run Xenix 386 > > 1. "PC", Intel 80386 CHIP Based, 33 MHz, "TOWER" > Configuration, with the following specs: You'll have to check that the chips are real 33 MHz ones, not simply 25MHz ones being run out of spec. One machine reviewed had to run with a special extra cooling fan pointing at the CPU! You will probably do best to wait a couple of months. Acer have a 33 MHz machine, but not yet shipping in quantity (they say August/September). > B. Hardware(Networking): > > 1. Intelligent Networking Hardware to support SCO > Xenix 386 OS Multiuser Environment. Probably the Excelan board for ethernet, see my comments elsewhere. For serial I/O (not usually described as networking!), see my reply to Bob Shafer). > a. 16 Bit Controller w/8 Mhz Processor and > 64K RAM Offloading I/O processing from > main processor w/4 terminal concentrator > ports. I don't understand why you care that it has exactly 64K of RAM. The I/O boards we use have 128K of on-board RAM, so I imagine that you are not interested in them. > b. 2 Terminal Concentrators w/16 RS232 port > capability and 6 MHz processor, attachable > to controller card concentrator ports. Again, why does the sloweer speed processor matter? > c. Thin twisted pair wire connection from > terminal concentrator to ascii terminals > and PCs. You have to use at least 6 wires for the best results, including modem flow control. If you have no modems, and no emacs users, and don't use local printers (connected throught the back of terminals), and don't mind the accasional garbageds screen, you can use Xon/Xoff, maybe with line drivers. > C. Hardware(Satellite), (Quantity of 8 Units): > > 1. ASCII Terminals Complete with all necessary hardware > to connect to basic Network "B" above. > a. 78 Hz Refresh Rate. > b. 110 Vac. > c. 2 serial ports, 1 parallel port. I have never seen a terminal with a parallel port. This sounds interesting. Of course, a 110 Vac 78Hz terminal would be entirely useless in the UK! I need 250 VAC instead. Lee ({utzoo, uunet, pyramid}!utai!anduk.uucp!lee) -- Lee Russell Quin, Unixsys UK Ltd, The Genesis Centre, Birchwood, Warrington, ENGLAND, WA3 7BH; Tel. +44 925 828181, Fax +44 925 827834 lee%anduk.uucp@ai.toronto.edu; {utzoo,uunet}!utai!anduk!lee UK: uu.warwick.ac.uk!anduk.co.uk!lee ------------------------------ From: tpf%jdyx.UUCP@mathcs.emory.edu Subject: Re: 80386 mailing list, vol 4 #35 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 89 08:46:47 EDT I'll work on it some more today. Do you have any more clues? I assume that despite the problemn you were able to enter all of the data. I imagine it would not be too hard to recreate a route file to match the database. Maybe it is a out of memory problem; They were running a program with symbols and I wasn't in my test. But there shouldn't be... Does MSC have a free_mem function so I can track this. Tom ------------------------------ From: PT151%DMSWWU1A.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU Subject: 80386SX adaptercard for 80286 ATs Date: Tue, 20 Jun 89 18:53:21 MES I'm thinking about upgrading my AT-compatible 80286 clone to a 80386. Because I am looking for a cheap solution I would prefer an adaptercard with a 80386SX prozessor on it which can simply plugged into the 80286 socket on my motherboard. I have read in some magazine (BYTE or so) about one or two companies offering or developing such a card but there was no definite information about adresses, price etc. If anybody knows about such a 386SX upgrade card for ATs (price, distributor, ...) please let me know it. Thanks in advance Hans-Georg Reusch ------------------------------ From: Dana Myers Subject: 80x86 comments Date: Mon, 26 Jun 89 16:45:11 PDT >From Info-IBMPC Digest V89 #59: The 8086/8088, the 80186/80188, the 80286, and the 80386 are all different chips, with different CPUs and characteristics. I'll mention a few details, but I don't want to get too involved in the whole issue. The 8086/8088 are essentially the same CPU, with the following exceptions: 1. The instruction prefetch queue is shorter on the 8088 and uses a different algorithm in deciding when to prefetch. 2. The data bus is smaller on the 8088. The 80186/80188 family is different from the 8086/8088 in several ways, including: 1. The inclusion of a handful of peripherals. 2. The inclusion of several new instructions, such as PUSHA, POPA. 3. The improvement of several instruction execution times, such as MUL. 4. The addition of several new interrupt types, such as the invalid opcode exception. The 80286 is essentially an 80186 with an MMU and protection system added, also some new protection oriented interrupts. The 80386 is a completely different CPU, with many features and enhancements. Several new instructions, several new addressing modes, a barrel shifter to speed 'shl AX', etc., and a completely new memory protection system. The XT was designed to allow hard disks and large amounts of RAM in the base configuration. Welll.... you can swap RAM on the 286, but a segment at a time only, which is a pretty limited virtual memory environment.... The 286 allows one to do multi-tasking, but it doesn't just do it for you. The 286 does have a hardware context switch, but, from what I have seen, it is expensive enough in the average case that most folks avoid it. Once in 286 protected mode, one can only get back by a physical chip reset. As I mentioned above, the 386 is NOT an 8086 with some new stuff. It is a very different CPU which expands on the base 8086 configuration. The improvements to the memory management are quite extensive, but one outstanding feature is the addition of paged virtual memory, which is considerably easier to deal with than the segment based virtual memory of the 80286. In fact, with the 386, one can create very large segments and then rely on the protection built into the paging unit, thus providing what looks like a linear address machine (so all the whiners about the 80x86 segments can relax now ;-). Also, the 386 cxan switch back into real mode by resetting the Protected Mode bit. The Virtual 86 mode allows one to create multiple virtual 80x86 machines, but these really aren't just multiple 8088s... these are multiple real mode 80386 CPUs. The address and data over-ride prefixes in the 80386 will operate in V/86 mode, and you'll find you have access to the full 32 bit register set. The new 386 instructions and addressing mdes also work. The primary restriction is that you are limited to 16 bit default operation in the V/86 mode. PS/2s using the 386 include the Model 70 and the Model 80. There is also a PS/2 which uses the 386SX (Model 55?). I've never heard the number 386 used as part of an official PS/2 name. People just seem to add it. The 386SX is cheaper probably coz Intel is trying to stimulate sales of this chip. Intel did the same thing with the 8088 - it cost more to make 8088s, but Intel sold them cheaper... I won't get off into that tangent ;-) Though I haven't looked closely yet (my sample and data books are back ordered), the 376 is a 386 without real mode or most of the MMU. Yes, it is an embedded controller CPU. >>From: david@wubios.WUstl.EDU (David J. Camp) >Subject: Differences in the 80X86/88 Family >The 8088 and 8086 share the same instruction set. The instruction set is essentially the same. Just the way segments are dealt with changes. In fact, I have written quite a bit of code using Microsoft C and then run it under 286 protected mode. >This mode (sometimes called 'protected' mode) is what is used by OS/2. >When OS/2 wants to run an MS-Dos application, it must reset the processor, >so that it reboots into 8088 mode. When running MS-Dos on an 80286, you >make no use of protected mode whatsoever. A 286 is faster and uses a 16 bit data path. It also can easily deal extended amounts of RAM. Though DOS is a real mode application, the extended features of the 286 can be used to speed program execution. Ok -- 'nuff time on the soapbox for me ;-) Dana H. Myers Locus Computing Corp. lcc.dana@seas.ucla.edu ------------------------------ From: timl@maxwell.Concordia.Ca ( TIM LAPIN | ILDC925 | SGWC1012 | ) Concordia University, Montreal Quebec Subject: Bollus Polar 386 Date: 9 Jun 89 14:16:06 GMT Recently I attended a computer show here in Montreal and I came across several inexpensive 386's: ALR, Everex AGI's, Acer (possibly cheap) and Bollus. Their base prices varied from 2400 to 3200 (Cdn) for a 20 MHz machine. What I want to know is if any of you guys have heard about these machines and if so, what was the tone (negative or positive). I await your responses with baited breath :-) and a fat wallet (soon to be thin :-() Tim Lapin ------------------------------ From: koverzin@bnrmtv.UUCP (Raymond Koverzin) Bell Northern Research, Mtn. View, CA Subject: Can I upgrade PC/XT clone to 386(SX) machine? Date: 16 Jun 89 22:05:11 GMT I own an IBM PC/XT clone and would like to upgrade to a 386 machine. What is the cheapest way for me to do that? Can I just replace the motherboard? I've also heard that a 386 kit can be bought from a shop in Sunnyvale, California. My friend thinks it is called "Dominos." No relation to the Pizza guys. Does anybody know about this or any other outfits like this? Any other suggestions? ------------------------------ From: jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) People-Net [pnet01], El Cajon CA Subject: Re: Can I upgrade PC/XT clone to 386(SX) machine? Date: 17 Jun 89 19:42:37 GMT It's pretty much the same scenario as when you do a motherboard swap to an AT. Some 8-bit cards will have to go and be replaced with AT or 386 cards, but one thing I have noted (at least for an AT) is that 8-bit XT hard drive controllers can be hit over the head with a proverbial hammer to work under MS-DOS and Minix. However, if anything demands to see a 16-bit controller you are out of luck. Fortunately DOS goes through the BIOS and Minix is written in such a modular fashion that it is easy to make an AT run off of an XT controller. /*--------------------------------------------------------------------------* * Flames: /dev/null (on my Minix partition) *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* * APRA : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil * INET : jca@pnet01.cts.com * UUCP : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hd-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca *--------------------------------------------------------------------------*/ #include void main (void) { #if defined (MSDOS) || defined (OS2) || defined (VMS) printf ("You call that an operating system???\n"); #else printf ("Unix might not be perfect...\n"); printf (" ...but it's the best I've seen thus far...\n"); #endif } ------------------------------ From: Andrew_J_Gray@cup.portal.com The Portal System (TM) Subject: Re: Can I upgrade PC/XT clone to 386(SX) machine? Date: 19 Jun 89 21:18:39 GMT There is a company in Sunnyvale called Domino Computers, that teaches classes on building computers. The catch is that you have to buy the motherboard from them, and the class is free. The '386 motherboard they sell is about $750 with no memory, which isn't a bad deal if you know the specs of the board. I don 't. If you want to buy all the parts from them, it'll cost you about $1400 for a complete system. You can bring in all of your old hardware, buy the motherboard from them, and do the upgrade with their tech. experts there to watch you do it. You can find an ad for their company in Computer Currents (local to California). Andrew Gray {apple,pacbell,ucbvax,hplabs}!well!agray ------------------------------ From: leverich@rand-unix.UUCP (Brian Leverich) RAND Corp., Santa Monica, CA Subject: Cheap 386 Motherboards? Date: 9 Jun 89 18:19:25 GMT Has anyone bought and used any of the under $1000 80386 motherboards I'm seeing around? I'd appreciate comments on speed and "flakiness". Thanks! -B -- "Simulate it in ROSS" Brian Leverich | U.S. Snail: 1700 Main St. ARPAnet: leverich@rand-unix | Santa Monica, CA 90406 UUCP/usenet: decvax!randvax!leverich | Ma Bell: (213) 393-0411 X7769 ------------------------------ From: kanak@cbnewsi.ATT.COM (kanak.nath) AT&T Bell Laboratories Subject: DOS, UNIX on 80386/16 Date: 8 Jun 89 22:27:58 GMT Hi Everyone I am in the process of getting a 80386/16 based PC. Besides using DOS I also want to use UNIX on it. Can anyone out there tell me how much of RAM I will require for a single user and also how much disk space is necessary for each DOS and UNIX. Also I would like to know the availability of DOS and UNIX softwares for this PC and how difficult/easy it is to load them in the system. I don't know much about these things. So my question might need further clarification. I would appreciate if you would kindly contact me with your information. Thank you. Kanak Nath att!hotld!kn (201) 949-8822 ------------------------------ From: tlf@well.UUCP (Todd Fincannon) Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link, Sausalito, CA Subject: FOR SALE: Interactive 386/ix 2.01 with X Windows 11.3 Date: 21 Jun 89 02:33:41 GMT Applications Development Platform (2 user) $1100 386/ix run-time, software development system, text processing workbench VP/ix (DOS under Unix) Interactive and AT&T manuals X Window System Developer's Kit $600 Interactive X11.3 server, programming tools, sample clients Interactive and O'Reilly manuals (vol. 1,2,3) ***** The Whole Enchilada $1600 ***** Todd Fincannon 713-580-8975 ------------------------------ End of 80386 M/L ****************