Received: by bu-cs.BU.EDU (5.58/4.7) id AA08846; Tue, 10 Jan 89 01:14:12 EST Message-Id: <8901100614.AA08846@bu-cs.BU.EDU> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 89 0:41:51 EST From: The Moderator Reply-To: TELECOM@bu-cs.BU.EDU Subject: TELECOM Digest V9 #9 To: TELECOM@bu-cs.bu.edu TELECOM Digest Tue, 10 Jan 89 0:41:51 EST Volume 9 : Issue 9 Today's Topics: Re: AT&T alleges dumping (David Kurtiak) Re: AT&T alleges dumping (Higdon replies to Kurtiak) Re: AT&T alleges dumping (John Shelton) New way to donate money Re: Switched 56k information ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Jan 89 10:34:10 EST From: David M. Kurtiak To: TELECOM@bu-cs.bu.edu Subject: Re: AT&T alleges dumping In John Higdon's(bovine!john@apple.com) posting to comp.dcom.telecom he writes: >Subject: AT&T alleges dumping >Date: 8 Jan 89 00:17:40 PST (Sun) > >Now that AT&T has entered the real world of competition, it has also >adopted the good ole American way of dealing with it. Having discovered >that its high-priced do-nothing crap they call equipment isn't selling all >that well, they focused their attention on (who else) the Japanese. W-R-O-N-G: not specifically the Japanese, but a handful of foreign manufacturers that have been proven to engage in dumping activities. >With the CWA and IBEW joining in the chorus, they are accusing Japanese >manufacturers of "dumping" cheap (but nevertheless full-featured) >electronic key equipment on the US market and are seeking relief from >the US government in the form of sanctions. > >They may be right. What sane person (other than some corporate >mentality type) would by a Merlin over a Panasonic 1232? But just maybe >they ought to consider how they might improve their product and lower >the price. But then that wouldn't be the American way. Just ask the >auto manufacturers. I was originally going to just ignore this rubbish, but felt that such ignorance cannot be let passed without some sort of rebuttal. The dumping accusations stem from real-world unfair trade practices that as I will point out, are a breach of open-trade agreements between the U.S. and it's trade partners. This is a perfectly legitimate gripe for *MANY* U.S. maufacturers. Without getting into a lecture on World Economics 101, read the actual press release(s) before making such radical conclusions and criticising specific companies, namely AT&T in your example. Scenario: U.S. based Company "A" sells small-business telephone systems for a nominal price of $1000 per unit. Company "B", which is foreign based, has a similar product, with or without better features that they sell IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY for $1000. Company "B" enters the U.S. market selling that same exact prioduct for $200. Keeping in mind that foreign governments often SUBSIDIZE industry, how can a U.S. manufacture even come close to competing??? Co. "B" is selling that product *BELOW* the actual costs of producing it, but because of the gov't subsidies they receive, Co. B still makes money hand-over-fist and captures a significant market share. Do U.S. mfgrs. receive government subsidies?? NO, generally not. This practice of selling below costs in a market other than the home country is known as DUMPING, and is indeed an unfair trade practice by definition of the enacted laws. I personally cannot see how any American, working for an American company in the United States can view this as fair competition. If the foreign competitors who wish to trade here played by the same rules, there would be no problem. But heaven help the U.S. manufacturer who attempts to dump their products in someone else's market. Trade wars, and accusations galore! You may not like American cars, telephones, or even Apple pie -- but be glad that at least you have that choice. In other countries you may not have such liberties. I'm not pro-protectionism, but just wish to see trade that is indeed FAIR to everyone involved. This probably isn't the appropriate group to discuss politics/trade policy, etc., but had to put in my two cents... HOP, *CLICK*, JUMP... I get off of my soapbox. --- David M. Kurtiak Internet: dmkdmk@ecsvax.uncecs.edu Bitnet: DMKDMK@ECSVAX.BITNET UUCP: dmkdmk@ecsvax.UUCP (rutgers,gatech)!mcnc!ecsvax!dmkdmk ------------------------------ To: dmkdmk@ecsvax.uncecs.edu Subject: Re: AT&T alleges dumping Cc: telecom@bu-cs.bu.edu Date: 9 Jan 89 11:23:07 PST (Mon) From: bovine!john@apple.com (John Higdon) Mr. Kurtiak: I was somewhat surprised by your instant reply to my posting. Unfortunately I feel that your response was typical of the knee-jerk attitude that pervades the US manufacturing community. Having owned an equipment vending company for over five years (no longer; the market's too hoary) I can speak with some authority concerning the wares. Most US makers have been well behind the times in their technology. While AT&T was still trying to push the Dimension, ITT was selling their 3100 (great hardware, lousy software), Rolm was selling 1976 equipment in 1986, and Mitel was pushing their highly touted ANALOG SX series. Last night, Sony's chairman of the board on 60 Minutes said the that US firms would be better off to concern themselves with their product than with what goes on in the board rooms and take-overs. I couldn't agree more. "Dumping" is a convenient smoke screen that may be true to a small degree, but it has been proven over and over again that the American people will pay MORE for what they really want. Japanese cars cost more than their American counterparts and yet they still enjoy brisk sales. The same applies to telephone equipment. I have no axes to grind in this area. My truck is American (it filled my needs at the right price). My computer is an AT&T built right here in my home town. When it was first introduced the price tag was $7,000. When they finally lowered the price to $1,600, then it became competitive. Did they loose money at this price? I doubt it. Another aspect concerns quality of workmanship. You may have heard recently about the difficulties Seagate has been having financially. In the press it was revealed that 20% of the work force was let go. Seagate blamed, among other things, foreign competition for their declining market performance. I can tell you first hand what their trouble is. Out of 20 Seagate drives under my control in 1988, seven (7) of them failed. No further comment necessary. US manufacturers have the capability to technologically cream the world competition. It's the free thinking in the United States that has historically led to our once technical superiority. If we could return to that mentality rather than playing legal and board room games, we would once again control the market place. The other countries are well aware of this and are hoping we never wake up. -- John Higdon john@bovine ..sun!{apple|cohesive|pacbell}!zygot!bovine!john ------------------------------ To: ames!comp-dcom-telecom@ames.arc.nasa.gov From: zodiac!jshelton@ames.arc.nasa.gov (John L. Shelton) Subject: Re: AT&T alleges dumping Date: 9 Jan 89 19:24:44 GMT In article bovine!john@apple.com (John Higdon) writes: .......[portion deleted] ->They may be right. What sane person (other than some corporate ->mentality type) would by a Merlin over a Panasonic 1232? But just maybe ->they ought to consider how they might improve their product and lower ->the price. But then that wouldn't be the American way. Just ask the ->auto manufacturers. -> ->-- ->John Higdon ->john@bovine ..sun!{apple|cohesive|pacbell}!zygot!bovine!john I'll claim to be sane. For home use, I selected a merlin plus over 20+ other sytems, all but one of which was made overseas. (Teleconnect was the other US manufactured unit.) I picked AT&T for an electronic key system for a lot of reasons: 1. Best documentation 2. More features (that I wanted) than any other system) 3. 4/10 (line/station) configuration instead of 2/6 or 3/8 4. Wide range of instruments available, including standard phones 5. Printer option for logging system calls, dumping configuration. 6. Rugged design 7. 800 number for assistance 8. I know I can get spare parts, repair, etc in 1 yr, 3 yr, 5 yr. 9. I'll be able to upgrade software later. 10. The phones don't look like crap; I like having good styling. 11. When I get a bigger house ( ;-) ) I can upgrade to an 8/20 or 30/100 system I didn't realize that other companies were dumping, but it didn't make a difference to me; the AT&T product (in this case) was vastly superior. =John= ------------------------------ To: uw-beaver!comp-dcom-telecom@beaver.cs.washington.edu From: ssc-vax!clark@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Roger Clark Swann) Subject: New way to donate money Date: 9 Jan 89 17:49:59 GMT First off, I hope that everyone is having a great 1989... As many of may have heard/read, there was a bad oil spill recently off the Washington state coast. As a result, there is much cleanup work going on both at the beaches and at emergency wildlife shelters. I was watching a story on all this during the evening news here in Seattle the other night. I was surprised when they ended the story by stating that one could donate to the cleanup fund, (didn't catch if this was the state fund or a private fund), by just dialing a phone number. Here is how it worked: dial 1-440-xxxx = $5 to the cleanup dial 1-440-yyyy = $10 to the cleanup The donation would be automatically charged to caller's phone bill. This is the first time that I have seen this done locally. I assume that it is going on elsewhere in the country as well. Roger C. Swan uucp: uw-beaver!ssc-vax!clark voice: 206/657-5810 [Moderator's Note: What is the area code to call? Can this number be called from outside the local phone company's area? I have not seen it done around Chicago, but I think it is an excellent idea. We are billed by the phone company for the various information services; we are billed $2 or more for the various sexual gratification services we call on 900-xxx-xxxx; why not something very worthwhile like Mr. Swan is describing? It might be worth a letter to your local telco, or your state regulators, asking that such a group of numbers be made available in your community, with the phone company donating its services as collection agent for charitable groups. P. Townson] ------------------------------ To: comp-dcom-telecom@rutgers.edu From: gould@pilot.njin.net (Brian Jay Gould) Subject: Re: Switched 56k information Date: 9 Jan 89 15:26:33 GMT In response... MidAmerican Long Distance located in Omaha, Nebraska, offers switched 56kbps services in most of the US. I have used the service for TCP/IP load levelling during peak usage and have found it to be very effective (and reliable). THe service actually costs LESS than a voice call in most cases. Why not? It costs them less to handle the call. Contact Jack Watson at MidAmerican. The main number is (402) 393-8250. Tell them that I sent you. --> Any disclaimers, made by me or by anyone on my behalf, may or may not accurately represent my representation of myself or others. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Brian Jay Gould :: INTERNET gould@jvnca.csc.org BITNET gould@jvncc - - UUCP rutgers!njin!gould Telephone (201) 329-9616 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------s ------------------------------ End of TELECOM Digest *********************