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This is an interview with The GNN from Underground eXperts United, taken on 4/18/00, by Mogel.

Mogel: Well, I'll attempt to focus on you, but it's likely that there will be points that this becomes somewhat of a "history of uXu" as well. I hope you don't mind.

GNN: Not at all.

Mogel: uXu has been around since '91, actually, and you've been an active writer for virtually all nine years. It states in #100 that you joined just a week after The Chief started the publication. How old were you, and what were you like back then?

GNN: I was 17 at the time and rather pissed off, in a pubertal manner.

Mogel: Well, why were you so generally angry?

GNN: The world didn't make sense to me (Well, it still doesn't.) And I couldn't find any clear justifications and explanations regarding its apparent madness from anyone.

Mogel: How did you get into computers and telecom originally? What drew you in?

GNN: Of course, my first interest was solely computer games (around 1985), but later, as I got my first modem, it became communicating with other people (around 1986). Then, for kicks, obtaining knowledge and information not usually available to the public. Finally, as a tool for not only writing, but also getting the things I wrote read by lots of people.

Mogel: But originally the distribution was done through BBS', of course. How different was the Swedish computer underground to the U.S. underground, regarding the sorts of information available and the types of boards?

GNN: There were lots of BBS's indeed. Most of them was quite boring. There were only a few underground boards... and in the early 90's, all good underground ones were virtually gone (in Sweden, that is) By underground board, I mean the H/P/A-type, of course... they where somehow replaced by pure "warez" boards.

Mogel: I'd imagine uXu might've had a hard time surfacing, if that's the case.

GNN: No, not really. uXu was not really known in Sweden until some years later. There was no such thing as a 't-file' scene in Sweden.

Mogel: How did uXu come to be, in that case? I know that The Chief started it as a side project from his more hack-oriented group, which ended up disbanding on him.

GNN: The Chief had a interest in writing, and he really liked the t-file scene of the U.S., so, he wanted his own group for t-files. I don't think he ever thought of it as something which were to be of local interest. It was to be distributed in the U.S., mainly, as most files at the time, through Ripco, if I remember correctly.

Mogel: Did you guys discuss the original direction of the content in uXu, or did it naturally evolve?

GNN: It has always evolved. We have never discussed any direction.

Mogel: Well, I've always sort of understood the "uXu Spirit" to be writing files questioning 'the establishment', so to speak. I mean, this might have been done somewhat oddly in early files, like some of your sincere "anarchy-boom!" how-to's ("Car Explosion Look-Alike")--but would you agree with this?

GNN: Ah, well, in a sense yes. I wrote the early files to provoke. I don't really know WHO I wanted to provoke, and why, I just wanted to experience the marvelous feeling of being able to state whatever bizarre thing that came to mind. I still enjoy that feeling, even though I probably don't shock anyone anymore.

Mogel: Heh, yes, trying to directly interact with the reader.

GNN: As an aside, my parents bought their first computer a couple of years ago... unfortunately, they knew that I had used a 'handle' for more than eleven years (quite hard to hide, as I got tons of snail mail during the 80's addressed to 'The GNN'). So, they managed to find the uXu site, and some of the early files. I tell you, that took some hours to explain...

Mogel: Hahaha, I was wondering if at some point you were at least slightly embarrassed by some of those earliest files, I dunno... the opening line to your first uXu file, "How To Get Even" was: Don't be stupid, be a smarty, come and join the anarchy party!".

GNN: I am not embarrassed by my early files. In a way, they weren't really written by me. They were written by a 17-year-old guy who was pissed off. I like to read them now and then, as a way of remembering what kind of person I was then.

Mogel: Yeah, I think that's part of the initial appeal of text files... is to write things like that.

GNN: It sure is.

Mogel: Still, though, it seems almost immediately there's a shift towards parody ("How To Shrink Heads") and a different direction ("The Anatomy of Hate") with your files. Although during these early files you do make frequent suggestions that people hurt/kill other people without too much explanation as to why... heh.

GNN: Yes, I did indeed tell people to kill or hurt other people.

Mogel: I laughed when I read your suggestion to put acid into people's eye-droppers. Haha, It's such an awful image.

GNN: Telling people to kill other people is among the worst things you can say, and therefore, it was so wonderful to say it... just for the sake of saying it, not being stopped.

Mogel: I see two files that reflect a clearer, new direction in your writing... #90, "People of The Elite Scene" and #98, "Utopia". The former suggests your reaction to being exposed to more and more of the underground, and the latter is one of your first digestible and thoughtful philosophical-style pieces, which has become one of your most pronounced styles.

GNN: I think I made that one (Elite Scene) during an internal party with a demo-group I was (and still am) involved in--Dual Crew (but we do not produce any demos anymore at our internal meetings, we just drink and speak of 'the good old days').

Mogel: Dual Crew?

GNN: A demo-group on C64 and Amiga, formed in 1986.

Mogel: Do they still produce on Amiga?

GNN: Yes, and we have a Finnish division of Dual Crew-Shining that is still very productive.

Mogel: Actually, People of The Elite Scene reminds me of another, much better file... #164, "How To Make A Bomb"... and is an excellent parody. This file is one of the first files, I think, where you directly try to resolve the 'angry anarchy' files of the past. I saw that you did a complete re-write in one of the more recent uXu files for Anatomy of Hate.

GNN: I liked the fact that most anarchy-files always started with a kind of 'disclaimer'.

Mogel: The nature of anarchy, in general, is a big theme for you, though... whatever angle it's done in. You talk about that in your file "Who Knows?", in which you recall someone mailing you saying "you don't know what anarchy is!" What DO you think about anarchy, if that's not too general of a question?

GNN: Do you mean as a political movement, or as the concept of the computer underground? I reject the former, but love the latter... however, a full conceptual analysis of that notion, even in the narrow context of the computer underground, is still a too big project for me to engage in here.

Mogel: The fact that you make the separation is interesting enough.

Mogel: What does someone mean when they say "anarchy in the computer underground"? For lotsa people, that just paints instant images of teenage kids blowing up mailboxes and giggling.

GNN: I know. But it is indeed more. I experienced 'anarchy' to mean something more than just pyrotechnics. That's not to say that building bombs is not funny, of course... but somehow, when you interact in the popular thing known as 'real life', you are always somewhat limited. For one thing, people KNOW who you are... and even though one might not experience it as being frustrating, one is always limited in what one is allowed to do or not.

Mogel: Perhaps this may sound like something WiReD magazine would say, but could 'anarchy' be a spirit that exists in 'the underground' by its very nature?

GNN: Well, the anarchy concept of the computer underground aims to get rid of many limits. You might say whatever you want to say, get to know whatever you want to know, and even though you might not actually DO all the weird things you can -- you're aware that you CAN do it. That gives a sense of freedom, the 'anarchy' freedom. That's how I understand 'anarchy' in the computer underground, and it's because of that concept I love it.

Mogel: Yes, that makes sense.

GNN: Well, I guess it does not; I have to write a file to make it understandable. I am not very good in expressing myself quickly in English.

Mogel: I think it makes sense. In a nutshell, the act of eliminating other-imposed limits.

GNN: And self-imposed, too. We are social creatures, we need certain restrictions to get around. There's nothing wrong with that, but I personally find it good to occasionally be somewhere else, where such restrictions weren't around, or, rather, not around in the same manner.

Mogel: But uXu, as far as I can tell, is thought of as more of an anti-establishment publication rather than an "anarchy" one. Perhaps it's better that way, to avoid the cliches that such a buzzword may bring. You guys also never directly discuss "HOW TO HACK" or anything like that. It's for the sake of 'text'.

GNN: Yes, it is for the sake of 'text', anarchy in writing. Anarchy writing might lead to anti-establishment texts, but that's not a necessary implication. Anarchy writing might end up in poetry, or anything.

Mogel: Which makes the "Swedish Hacker Association" incident seem quite absurd. What exactly WAS the story with that? Why did uXu get attacked?

GNN: A member of SHA was busted, and the police found uXu files on his computer. They immediately came to the conclusion that SHA and uXu was the same thing.

Mogel: Haha, do you know which files?

GNN: I don't think they actually read any files, they just looked at the titles. I think they thought that uXu was Sinn Fein, and SHA a kind of IRA. The SHA-bust was the first major bust of a hacking group in Sweden, and the police were totally confused. They did not know what they were really were looking for, so I guess they just grabbed everything they could.

Mogel: Okay, so they linked uXu to SHA through ignorance. How did they track you guys down?

GNN: SHA and uXu hung around at the same boards, so it was not all that hard. We never got raided, though... but some uXu-members were working as computer security consultants, the police contacted the companies and 'explained the situation'. That lead to one guy being fired from work. He was 'a security risk'. We did not believe it at the time, and we still cannot believe it. It was insane, but everybody was paranoid in the country after the SHA-bust.

Mogel: So it set a different tone in the scene.

GNN: Just whispering the three letters close to a computer company would make their 20 year old 'security expert' come out with a gun.

Mogel: How was your experience at the Hacking in Progress convention in Holland, in '97?

GNN: It was very, very good. Probably the best con in the world, as a guy from PGP said. I was very impressed by the political awareness of the hackers. Many, not only those of the old school, wanted to make sure that the Internet wasn't destroyed by commercialism.

Mogel: Ah, yes. It seems obvious that your university experience and studies have played an influence on your writing... as it seems to get progressively more (dare I use the word?) intellectual year after year. How would you describe your evolution as a writer?

GNN: I cannot really describe it, but of course, I have evolved. In a positive direction, I hope.

Mogel: Well, what are you more interested in exploring these days?

GNN: Hmm... that I do not know, either, to tell you the truth. I usually get very surprised when I write new files nowadays. I think like "what? did I just write that? why?". I never plan writing files. I just sit down, and 3-4 hours later something new has been created. And I do not know how it happened... It might sound a bit... strange... but that is how it works for me.

Mogel: That's really incredible, particularly because you have authored over 200 uXu files over the years. What helps you be able to say original things, and be productive?

GNN: My critics, the uXu staff, and readers who contact me. That is, my critics ARE the staff and certain readers. I wouldn't have been able to write as much as I have done if I hadn't had lots of people who constantly complain about what I do.

Mogel: Hahaha, well, it does help that you have a diverse set of styles (fiction, editorial, philosophical, etc) to work from.

GNN: Yes, very much. That is one thing I always want to explore: new types of styles.

Mogel: Sometimes uXu files are very short, I've noticed. Containing a brief passage.

Mogel: I recall one file that went like this: "if you got the attention of the world for one minute, what would you say?"

GNN: You probably mean the text by Polish Polish. Well, what would you say?

Mogel: I'd probably say "Write for HOE!"

GNN: I figured.

Mogel: What would YOU say?

GNN: "Write for HOE!"

Mogel: The uXu crew is not just Swedish, of course, but there's still a general 'crew' of you guys that live there. What are you guys like, as friends?

GNN: I've had many good friends in the computer underground, but none as good as with the uXu people and the Dual Crew people. Many friendships in the computer underground are built around contingent qualities, such as a common interest in certain activities. Such friendships seize to be the moment the common interest seize to be. But if you get to like some essential qualities in the PERSON too, you have a friend for life. And I think some of us in uXu started to like each other in more respects that just t-files.

Mogel: Well, the nature of the staff itself has changed, right?... from the outside, one of the original members, Phearless, passed away (in '97?) and The Chief gave over editorship to Bravemoore, who I've almost never spoken with.

GNN: There has been some changes, but not as many as one could think of. Many writers have just switched handles. And Bravemoore has been around for a very long time, but under different names. So, he's not really a stranger.

Mogel: Do you think Bravemoore is a good editor?

GNN: Yes, I do. He's the best. Now, if he just spent less time with his wife and children, he would be even better!

Mogel: Does he (or you) have any uXu plans for the future?

GNN: Just to keep it going forever. We want uXu to be around for the rest of our lives.

Mogel: Don't you guys want to be the next Mondo 2000?

GNN: No, we don't. We aren't a big e-zine. We will never be, and actually, we don't want to. If you become big, you will change. You might start censoring yourself, or writing for the sake of the readers instead of yourself (just to get bigger). And you have to spend hours for administration and so on...

Mogel: Yes, I am teasing, of course. It seems that being 'true to ASCII' has been always pretty much been a key attitude for you. Why the traditional medium? Why doesn't uXu fold up it's text editors and publish in ever-so-pretty HTML graphics? Like the question that many a text author has been asked: "Why text files?!@?"

GNN: Because in ASCII, you've just got text. No place for cheap tricks. Just text.

Mogel: Couldn't one argue "cheap tricks can come in any form?"--a text file with a 'hidden' subtext.

GNN: Yes, cheap tricks can come in any form. I don't really know how to 'cheat' in ASCII in quite the same sense, unless by the means of rhetoric. Really, though, it can be put simply like this: we fancy ASCII. "Why?" Why not? I don't know what we'd do if the standard disappeared. It's like an old typewriter--if you've written on it for years and years, you don't want to switch, because you just cannot write with anything else.

Mogel: Is there anything you'd LIKE to see out of e'zines, text files, or the underground?

GNN: I want to see more 17-year-old guys and girls who are pissed off, and say what they want to say, just for the sake of it.

Mogel: What are some examples of your favorite text files of all time? Any favorite uXu files?

GNN: Favorite uXu files... hmmm... all those written by Max West. And "Blackstone Rising" by Sarlo, the first file of uXu that actually had some quality. And all files from the strange people in Activist Times, Inc are my very favorite. Those were among the first t-file I read, and I could not help thinking "what the hell IS this?"