AppleLink APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG January 17, 1989 10:00 p.m. Eastern time Topic: Apple IIGS Toolbox Forum Leader: James Luther (AFL Jim) AFL Jim Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum! Tonight's topic is the IIGS Toolbox. AFL Jim We'll be following protocol in the conference room tonight, so if you have a AFL Jim question, type a question mark on a line by itself like this: AFL Jim ? AFL Jim If you have a comment to make on the current discussion, type an "!" on a line AFL Jim by itself like this: AFL Jim ! AFL Jim Gary will keep track of who's up next and I'll call on you when it's your turn. AFL Jim Any questions? AFA Gary J Q = Mr Stanley David JF ? Mr Stanley How do you begin the VBL to make it search the heartbeat queue? AFL Jim OK, go ahead, Mr Stanley AFA Gary J Q = Mr Stanley, David SEGlass ! AFL Jim GA Steve AFA Dennis (power failure. I'm off. Bye) AFA Parik (Bye Dennis :( SEGlass Do you mean, how do you start the interrupts? Matt DTS (Bye Dennis, but I don't see how the two are related... ) Mr Stanley Yes! Mr Stanley I cant find the tool Mr Stanley # SEGlass There is a misc.tools call called IntSrc. AFA Parik ? Matt DTS The release notes for 4.0 and the TB Ref. Update underwent some parallel... AFA Gary J Whew! Matt DTS ...writing, so I think it's safer to have them both. I do. Matt DTS That covers all the sound toolsets. GA. Mr Stanley !? (related question) DaviesDoug ? AFL Jim GA Mr Stanley David JF Do I need "Sound Tools ERS Rev 2.1" or is there a later, more complete version? Mr Stanley How can I get this update? AFL Jim Q= David (Mr S), Doug AFA Parik ? JimLaz ? AFL Jim You can get the update from the Apple Programmmer's and Developer's Association Matt DTS These products are both only available from APDA, Mr. Stanley. SEGlass ! AFL Jim Their address is: AFA Gary J Q = David (Mr Stanley), Parik, DaviesDoug, JimLaz AFL Jim ut oh... what is it? AFL Jim They've moved. AFL Jack as of the 18th it's at Apple! AFA Gary J hehe Mr Stanley Are they on alink? Matt DTS Geez louise. My APDA information, my Sound Tools ERS and everything else... Matt DTS ...are all at work. I can't find anything here (just moved all the computers). AFA Gary J I've got it.. AFL Jim GA Gary Matt DTS Aha! Found the Sound Tools ERS, and 2.1 is the latest version. AFA Gary J Phone number: 1-800-282-APDA AFL Jim Ahhh... you can call APDA at 1-800-282-APDA David JF My Apple APDA card shows a phone # 800-282-APDA. AFA Gary J For placing orders: AFA Gary J 20525 Mariani Avenue, M/S 33G AFA Gary J Cupertion, CA 95014-6299 Matt DTS (or even Cupertino) AFL Jim You have to be an APDA member to place an order, though. JimLaz Guys I don't think that APDA want that phone number to be given out to non- JimLaz members. DaviesDoug ! AFA Gary J hehe...right, Matt! AFL Jim Call the 800 number for membership info. Matt DTS Jim: I don't believe they mind. AFA Gary J Cupertion = Cupertino Mr Stanley How can I become an APDA member? Matt DTS They will be publishing it with the mailing address in future promotional... AFL Jim The 800 number is in an Call-APPLE ad. Matt DTS ...material. Mr. S: Call that number and ask them. JimLaz Thought I read that somewhere. Maybe in the old organization. AFL Jim Doug, a comment? DaviesDoug Seems that when I use FFStartSound the volume isn't quite as loud as if.... David JF ga Matt DTS The old APDA had an order-only line which was private. (finally done, GA) AFA Gary J Q = David (Mr Stanley), Parik, DaviesDoug, JimLaz DaviesDoug I use the sound chip directly DaviesDoug even if I specify a volume of $FF Matt DTS ! AFL Jim GA Matt Matt DTS Is this true even if the volume level in the Control Panel is at maximum? DaviesDoug YES matt DaviesDoug Sierra online uses the chip directly...and they can really belt it out Matt DTS Let me look for a few minutes (ga). AFL Jim While Matt's mind grinds that question up, let's get your question, Parik AFL Jim ga AFA Gary J Q = Parik, DaviesDoug (Matt), JimLaz AFA Parik 2 questions, is the toolbox quick-reference "fixed"? :) AFA Parik Also, are there any benefits of being in APDA if already certified developer? AFA Parik GA Matt DTS Don't know at this point - send mail to "AFL Tom" and ask him. AFA Parik (thats the new APDA :) SEGlass ! AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Steve), Doug (Matt), JimLaz AFL Jim Parik, I think you have to be an APDA member to buy stuff from APDA even if Matt DTS [I'm sorry, I'll follow protocol. I'm just excited. GA] AFL Jim you're a certified developer. AFL Jim Steve, GA SEGlass I don't know the answer to the first, but for the second question, SEGlass I think there are advantages to being part of APDA for any developer. SEGlass You get info on products from other sources than just Apple. SEGlass A good example in the GS world is the tools from Byteworks and TML. You SEGlass can hear about them and buy them this way. Its a good $20 investment. SEGlass GA Matt DTS ! AFL Jim Matt, GA AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Matt), Doug (Matt), JimLaz Matt DTS With the added functionality of having APDA in house, Apple's Developer Group.. AFL Jim (Matt's all over) Matt DTS ...will continue to consolidate services making dealing with both APDA and... David JF Bye SEGlass (He's not that big.) AFA Gary J (At least we have him between the parenthesis! :) AFL Jim Bye David Matt DTS ...other parts of Apple even easier than ever for certified developer. GA. Mr Stanley (:) Matt DTS (I know where you all live.) AFA Parik Better send that survey in quick I guess. :) Matt DTS (even scarier, I know where Steve works.) AFL Jim (and he has access to my office BEFORE I get there) Matt DTS ! AFL Jim GA Matt AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Matt), Doug (Matt), JimLaz Matt DTS I already have my copy of the next APDAlog (Apple's first), since I'm a... Matt DTS ...contributor, and I have to say it's looking good. I think you'll all be... Matt DTS ...impressed with the way it's set up and produced. GA. AFA Gary J ! Mr Stanley ? AFL Jim OK, Are we done with your questions, Parik and Doug? DaviesDoug Yes AFA Parik yup AFL Jim OK Jim, your turn! JimLaz Does anyone know when the Toolbox update and the GS/OS Reference Manual (vol 1) AFA Gary J Q = JimLaz, Mr Stanley JimLaz will be released in there final versions? Matt DTS ! JimLaz there=their AFL Jim GA Matt Matt DTS No. GA Matt DTS AFL Jim hehe AFL Jim that's probably no comment Matt DTS Work continues on both volumes, of course, but there don't seem to be any... AFA Gary J Q = JimLaz (Matt), Mr Stanley Matt DTS ...(or many) significant errors or omissions in the beta drafts now available. Matt DTS We've found several small things, and a couple of things that should be added.. Dave Lyons ! AFL Jim There's Tom now! SEGlass Yea, those writers were pestering us even today... GA Matt DTS ...before it's printed in hardcover for eternity, but they're very stable. GA. Dave Lyons How 'bout a beta of GS/OS vol 2? JimLaz It's just that I hate to buy the beta drafts and then have to buy the final JimLaz versions. AFA Gary J Q = JimLaz (Dave), Mr Stanley AFL Tom Yea, so what? Matt DTS Dave: It's getting there. It's a big book, it's taken time. AFL Jim Parik, want to ask Tom your first question? AFA Parik Didn't Dave has Tom's question? :) AFA Parik Oh, MY question. Umm, is the toolbox reference "fixed"? Matt DTS Jim: Would you rather everyone had to wait until the final hardcover ones... AFL Tom You mean the Quick References? AFA Parik yup Matt DTS ...were printed? The beta drafts are there for those who wish to have 'em. AFL Tom Well, the C one is being checked right now, and Assembly is being worked on by the formatters. DaviesDoug ? AFL Tom Should be out today or tomorrow, and then checking. AFA Parik great! JimLaz No, but I still would rather get the final version if I can help it. AFA Gary J Q = JimLaz (Matt), Mr Stanley, Doug JimLaz And it looks more and more like I will have to get the beta if I'm going to get AFL Jim The whole idea behind APDA is to get beta material out to the developers who Matt DTS Jim: that's about all I can say. If you want to wait for final, you can... JimLaz to work on my current big project. AFL Tom (Which doc are we talking about?) Matt DTS ...but some people prefer not to wait for final manuals to use the stuff. GA. AFL Jim want it or need it before the final editions are printed. AFL Jim I held onto my II plus until the IIe had been out for 2 years - everything was AFL Jim in final versions by then, but I was way behind developers that started in AFL Jim January of '83. AFL Jim Mr Stanley, GA with your question... AFA Gary J Q = Mr Stanley, Doug Mr Stanley Heres the idea I had: if you could write a program which would Mr Stanley interupt another, pass control to a second program Mr Stanley and soon after interupt it couldnt multitalking be emulated? Mr Stanley oops MultiTasking Dave Lyons ! DaviesDoug ! AFA Gary J Q = Mr Stanley (Dave, Doug), Doug AFL Jim It would be simple multitasking, but I think most people think of multitasking AFL Jim as an operating system function. AFL Jim GA Dave Dave Lyons There are a _lot_ of issues involved in MultiTasking. First off, what system Dave Lyons are we talking about? 128K & ProDOS 8? GS/OS and a big GS with a memory Dave Lyons manager & lots of toolbox routines? Mr Stanley BIG GS!!! Dave Lyons Ok, on the GS the toolbox routines aren't currently designed to be used by Dave Lyons more than one application at once, and there isn't even a way to _preserve_ the AFA Parik ! Dave Lyons complete current state of all toolsets for resuming another application later. AFA Gary J Q = Mr Stanley (Dave, Doug, Parik), Doug Dave Lyons That's _one_ problem. ga AFL Jim GA Doug DaviesDoug Maybe you'll see something from WordPerfect soon that does this successfully :) DaviesDoug :) DaviesDoug GA Mr Stanley I want to beat Word Perfect! :) Mr Stanley GA AFL Jim GA Parik AFA Parik whats the point? All you're doing is running programs one after the other, its ScottG25 ! AFA Parik not true multitasking (one program works while the other does too :). Doug, AFA Parik tell us more. :) AFA Parik ga AFA Gary J Q = Mr Stanley (Scott), Doug Dave Lyons ! AFL Jim Will he or won't he??... DaviesDoug who just sent me that flash note? (sorry for talking out of turn) AFL Jim mememe AFL Jim Scott, got a comment? GA Floyd Zink ! ScottG25 To elaborate on what Parik said... true multitasking involves an awful lot... AFA Gary J Q = Mr Stanley (Scott, Dave, Floyd), Doug ScottG25 I even wonder if the current GS could handle all the interrupts without... Mr Stanley (ths GS can handle anything!) ScottG25 starting to crawl... it's and interesting concept, tho... ScottG25 GA AFL Jim OK Dave, GA Dave Lyons Parik, there's definitely a point to having a Switcher type application; it was Dave Lyons useful on the Mac years before MultiFinder was available. Same idea as Dave Lyons SoftSwitch, but for 16-bit programs. Being able to resume an applicatino right Dave Lyons where you left off (all documents open, etc) is neat. applicatino=...on Dave Lyons (done) AFA Parik (you'd need 16 megs :) AFA Gary J Q = Mr Stanley (Floyd), Doug Dave Lyons (Mebbe, mebbe not....) AFL Jim OK Floyd, your turn... AFL Jim ga Floyd Zink I wonder if you could intercept all the Startup and Shutdown tool calls and tap into the event mgr Floyd Zink with the controling (switcher) program. If one of the applications still needs a tool, don't shut Floyd Zink it down. Then clean up when they all quit. ga Dave Lyons ! AFL Jim Dave, GA Dave Lyons There's lots more to it than that--I can work on some examples, but in general AFA Gary J Q = Mr Stanley (Dave), Doug Dave Lyons there is info you can configure in a toolset that there is no defined way to Dave Lyons preserve. You'd need to get the tools back in the same state they were in, Dave Lyons not just keep them active. A trivial example is the SFAllCaps call. This one Mr Stanley ! Dave Lyons wouldn't be a major problem if the caps settin for Standard File wasn't ScottG25 ! Dave Lyons preserved, but it illustrates something there's no way to check the status Dave Lyons of to preserve. ga Floyd Zink That's true, but this is the first time I've thought about it. :) AFL Jim GA Mr Stanley AFA Gary J Q = Mr Stanley (Mr S, Scott), Doug Mr Stanley Assuming an 8 meg GS you could copy the _entire_ Toolbox into ram and have 2 Mr Stanley separeate sets, but this unfortuatly would be real slow!! Dave Lyons ! Mr Stanley Bout in general do the toolbexes care about their former status? Mr Stanley ga AFL Jim Scott, GA JimLaz ! ScottG25 User Id's could be used to track everything, if the tools preserved a users AFA Gary J Q = Mr Stanley (Scott, Dave, JimLaz), Doug Mr Stanley (now theres a good idea for a new toolset!) ScottG25 state.... is this dreaming? Just another thing to extend... and each user ScottG25 would have his own area mapped for the state...sure, this is a RAM hog idea.. ScottG25 but it eliminates paging/swapping and makes context switching easier... GA Mr Stanley (im still waiting for a 100meg ram GS) AFA Gary J Q = Mr Stanley (Dave, JimLaz), Doug AFL Jim OK, Dave, then Jim, then we're moving on to Doug's next question. Dave Lyons Copying toolbox code from ROM to RAM isn't going to help--won't run there as Dave Lyons is. Anyway, the reasonable way to keep separate states for most toolsets Dave Lyons would be to _require_ them to keep all their state info in their work area DaviesDoug Is there a list anywhere that shows the toolbox calls that can move an... Dave Lyons (those could be changed by a switcher program), but a lot of toolsets still DaviesDoug unlocked block of memory....the Mac does! Dave Lyons keep stuff in their own code segments. (A lot? Some?) Dave Lyons ga AFL Jim Jim GA AFA Gary J Q = Mr Stanley (JimLaz), Doug JimLaz Never mind... GA Doug. AFL Jim (was that your question, Doug?) Dave Lyons ! DaviesDoug I already did DaviesDoug look above AFL Jim Dave a comment on Doug's question? AFL Jim ^ a comma there Matt DTS ! Dave Lyons I don't know of a comprehensive list, Doug, but in general assume that a call Dave Lyons _can_ move memory unless you have a good reason to believe it doesn't. Are Dave Lyons you wondering about any particular calls? Anything that allocates memory can AFA Gary J Q = Doug (Dave, Matt) Dave Lyons move unlocked blocks; this includes lots of QuickDraw operations, at least if JimLaz ! Dave Lyons regions are being created; it also includes GS/OS calls, since caching is Dave Lyons happening, etc. done AFL Jim Matt GA AFA Gary J Q = Doug (Matt, JimLaz) Matt DTS Being very picky, only the Memory Manager actually moves unlocked blocks... Matt DTS ...around, but any toolset which depends on the MM (which is all of them) could Matt DTS conceivably force such a move to happen. Even such a list as you describe... Matt DTS ...wouldn't do much good since new tools and tool calls are regularly added. Mr Stanley ? (a quicky) Matt DTS GA. DaviesDoug ! AFL Jim Jim your comment... GAS AFL Jim A AFL Jim Ack! JimLaz If the call description says that it can return Memory Manager errors then you AFA Gary J Q = Doug (JimLaz) JimLaz can be sure it'll move memory if it needs to. DaviesDoug good jim! JimLaz ga Matt DTS ! Dave Lyons ! AFL Jim GA Doug AFA Gary J Q = Doug (Matt, Dave), Mr Stanley DaviesDoug I know the Mac has a list DaviesDoug Just a pain to lock a block when you don't need to AFL Jim Matt GA Matt DTS Don't mistake the Toolbox Ref's "Possible Errors" section for each call... Mr Stanley ! Floyd Zink ! Matt DTS ...to mean "ALL Possible Errors." The reference (like the GS/OS Reference)... JimLaz ! Matt DTS ...discusses the most probable errors, but others could occur... Matt DTS GA AFA Gary J Q = Doug (Dave, Mr S, Floyd, JimLaz), Mr Stanley Dave Lyons A list of calls guaranteed _not_ to compact memory would be very useful, tho. AFL Jim Matt, does this mean the tools that say they return no errors can? Matt DTS "No errors" is a different story. Steve's more qualified to discuss that one,. Matt DTS [passing the buck so fast George Washington's head spins] AFL Jim Steve, any comment? AFL Jim :) DaviesDoug steves not here Matt DTS He took off. DaviesDoug he wimped out AFL Jim OK, Mr Stanley, GA Dave Lyons You wouldn't have to include all the calls that can't _currently_ compact--just Mr Stanley (lol) Matt DTS Well, let me try it. Hold on for a second while I compose my thoughts. ScottG25 ! Dave Lyons ones you wanted to guarantee. Mr Stanley You wouldnt have to worry about moving blocks if Mr Stanley before evry time you directly acces the block Floyd Zink -! Mr Stanley you de-reference the handle AFA Gary J Q = Doug (Stan, JimLaz, Scott), Stan DaviesDoug That takes time Mr Stanley the time diference would PROABLY be minimal Mr Stanley unless you do it all the time DaviesDoug and takes code (yeck!) ScottG25 -! AFL Jim Jim GA with your comment AFA Gary J Q = Doug (JimLaz), Stan Mr Stanley it is easier to access memory using [handle] notation any way. ga JimLaz I know it's not a compleat list or errors, but it's something to concider. JimLaz ga Matt DTS ! (slightly ready) AFL Jim OK Matt, GA slightly... AFA Gary J Q = Doug (Matt), Stan Matt DTS Jim: Just pointing it out; some people believe it's all possible errors. On.. DaviesDoug Did you know that if you hold the mouse down on the arrow on the scroll bar... Matt DTS ..."no errors": I interpret it to mean that I probably shouldn't have to... DaviesDoug that the banner scrolls across a lot quicker :) Matt DTS ...do error-checking after that call. That's not always the best way to do it. Dave Lyons ! for Mr. Stanley Matt DTS An unexpected MM or GS/OS error could pop up, or a new revision of the tool... ScottG25 Matt DTS ...might require error reporting where none previously was needed. Matt DTS For example, I would probably check for errors on _SFGetFile, even if... Matt DTS ...I did nothing but report an error if I got one, but I wouldn't check... AFA Gary J Q = Doug (Matt, Dave), Stan ScottG25 ! Matt DTS ...for errors on _GetHandleSize. It kind of depends on what you're doing. DaviesDoug I'm done Matt DTS That's the best I can do on it; "No errors" just means "we don't think you'll.. Matt DTS ...get an error", as best as I understand it. GA. AFL Jim Dave, your comment... GA ScottG25 Carry is set on _S Dave Lyons "[handle]" notation is never a valid way to accesss memory in a block; I must Dave Lyons be misunderstanding you, Mr. S. ga ScottG25 AFA Gary J Q = Doug (Dave, Scott), Stan Mr Stanley I meant double indirect addressing. ga Dave Lyons ok AFL Jim Scott, your comment...GA JimLaz ? ScottG25 Carry is set on _SFGetFile, now? It didn't used to be, to my recollection. GA Matt DTS ! AFL Jim GA Matt Matt DTS I didn't say it was. I just said that I might be likely to write maybe: AFL Jim (I need a macro for GA Matt) Matt DTS label _SFGetFile Matt DTS bcs errordeath AFA Gary J (I need a macro for (Matt)) Matt DTS ; Just because I'm paranoid Matt DTS (GA) Dave Lyons ? ScottG25 Oh, ok! AFL Jim Stan, let's get your question in here. GA AFA Gary J Q = Stan AFL Jim Q + Dave AFA Gary J (thanks!) AFL Jim Mr Stanley?? Mr Stanley Heres a quick one: Why do some toolsets Need Prodos 16 of GSOS? AFA Gary J Q = Stan, Dave Matt DTS ! AFL Jim huh? JimLaz of? Dave Lyons of=?or Matt DTS (of = or) Mr Stanley (yeah, sorry. didnt get eneough sleep) AFL Jim Because, some toolsets call the operating system.... AFL Jim GA Amtt AFL Jim Matt Matt DTS (AFL Jim GA, Matt. Matt DTS Thanks, Jim) Dave Lyons ! AFA Gary J (You need a macro REAL bad, Jim! :) AFA Parik (Gary : ARRGGHGHHHH :-) Matt DTS Mr. S: If you do an _InstallFont call to install a font that's not in memory, Matt DTS ...how's the Font Manager supposed to get it off the disk without GS/OS or P16? Matt DTS Similarly with the Scrap manager storing scraps to the disk, the Print Manager. Mr Stanley Yeah, i understand that, but why does MM need it????? AFA Gary J Q = Stan (Matt, Dave), Dave Matt DTS ...loading in printer and port drivers, the MIDI tools loading MIDI drivers, Matt DTS etc. And since when does the Memory Manager require the OS? JimLaz ! Mr Stanley It does@! Mr Stanley oops ! AFA Gary J Q + (JimLaz) Matt DTS (resorting to an old tactic he used with his sister) Prove it. AFA Parik heh JimLaz Which call(s)? Mr Stanley :::::: Looking ::::::: Dave Lyons (Remove my old "!", but the Mem Mgr does _not_ require GS/OS or P16, as you can AFA Parik "did not" "did too!" "Did not!" "did too!" :-) Dave Lyons easily see since the RAMdisk and P8CDA and lots of CDAs work without a 16bit Dave Lyons OS!) AFA Gary J Q = Stan (Matt, Dave, JimLaz), Dave Matt DTS Parik: You know my sister? Mr Stanley MM wont start with out prodos 16!!! (or GSOS!) AFA Parik (she's DTS at IBM :) Dave Lyons Whaddaya mean by won't start? AFA Gary J Q = Stan (Matt, JimLaz), Dave Matt DTS Mr Stanley: No offense, but I think you've gone off the deep end. Dave Lyons ! Mr Stanley You get an error! :::::STILL LOOKING::::::::: Dave Lyons Idea--if you're calling MMStartUp under ProDOS 8 and nobody has allocated the Dave Lyons memory you're making the call from, it'll return an error, I bet. Normally it Dave Lyons does a FindHandle on the address you're calling from and returns the ID of JimLaz That's it Dave! JimLaz ! Matt DTS Sounds reasonable, Dave. Dave Lyons that block. So try allocating the bank 0 memory first, _then_ starting up the AFA Gary J Q = Stan (JimLaz), Dave JimLaz -! Dave Lyons memory manager! Be prepared to proceed if the memory is already allocated, as Dave Lyons it will be if you launched under P16 or GS/OS (or with P8CDA arond). Matt DTS ! Dave Lyons (arond=around) done AFA Gary J Q = Stan (Matt), Dave Floyd Zink AFL Jim Go Matt Matt DTS If you're using the Memory Manager from a P8 program, and you want to use... Matt DTS ...the auxID field of the User ID for your own purposes (as discussed in... Matt DTS ...IIgs Tech Note #17), be SURE the ID you get already has a ZERO in that... Matt DTS ...nibble before continuing. GS/OS uses the auxID for it's own purposes... Matt DTS ...and an MMStartUp call from P8 while under GS/OS will return a $3000 ID with Dave Lyons ! Matt DTS ...a non-zero value in there. Changing it to something else could dispose Matt DTS handles that belong to GS/OS that aren't yours to dispose. Tread lightly. Matt DTS GA. Dave Lyons I don't understand...so you should use GetNewID, or what? Matt DTS Yeah. If you get a non-zero AuxID returned from MMStartUp, then you should... AFL Jim (hey, cut the protocol and continue at your leasure...) Matt DTS ...call GetNewID if you intend to modify the AuxID field for MM operations. Dave Lyons Okay, I can dig that, Matt. Matt DTS AFA Parik GA ga GA ga ga ga ga...I'm sick of GA... Dave Lyons I want to open up an old can of worms and ask what the A register means, if Matt DTS All right, protocol's dead - let 'em fly, boys... AFL Jim Goo goo Dave Lyons anything, when a tool call returns with the carry clear. AFA Gary J GA Parik Matt DTS ...(since Byte printed recently "there are no women programmers") AFA Parik :P AFA Gary J :) Matt DTS Dave: Should be zero. If it's not, there's a tool bug. BUT: Matt DTS In such an instance, you are to proceed as if no error has occured. JimLaz too, bad like to get my debuggers on a woman. AFA Parik heh heh Jim Matt DTS If the carry's not set, no error occured. Dave Lyons Hmmm...judges? Is that an answer? :) Matt DTS That's a definition. DaviesDoug Anyone try my debugger trick? AFL Jim I've got to go. I'm still packing.... AFA Parik I tried the p8 one Doug! ScottG25 (a) sent, (b), will send, ....? Matt DTS We upload them in DTS to AppleLink Apple Edition. That usually takes no time. Matt DTS I don't know. I'm not licensing either. Dave Lyons Okay. Don't mean to sound unappreciative of all DTS's work...I just want to Dave Lyons actually get to _see_ it!