AppleLink APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG February 7, 1989 10:00 p.m. Eastern time Topic: Pascal and C Forum Leader: James Luther (AFL Jim) AFL Jim Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight's topic is Pascal & C. AFL Jim Both languages are available in some form on both the 8 bit Apples and the IIGS AFL Jim so we'll discuss any system you want. AFA Gary J ..... AFL Jim Any questions to start the evening off? Matt DTS AFA Gary J :) AFL Jim (yes, no, maybe?) AFL Marty How about Instant Pascal? JSchober (it's a LULLLL, actually...) AFL Jim How about it? :) Windrider5 why is there so little support for c for the iigs JSchober (hi ... err... Floyd. Hmmm...) AFL Marty Is it still published? Is it still copy protected? If so, why? AFL Floyd Matt DTS WR5: What do you mean by "so little support"? AFA Gary J Q = Marty, Windrider Matt DTS AFL Marty (Let Windrider go ahead of me) Coach101 ! AFA Gary J Q = Windrider, Marty :) BillP ! AFL Jim GA Windrider - we'll give as much support to C as you want. Windrider5 take the magazine CALLA.P.P.L.E. there are never any C related article Matt DTS That's because none of you talented people ever bless Cecil & Co. with one. AFL Jim There have been a couple of C articles, but nothing in the last 6 months or so. Matt DTS Cecil and Kathryn have asked several times for C authors, but haven't gotten... Matt DTS ...very far yet, apparently. Matt DTS (I mean authors of C articles, not Mr. K and Mr. R.) AFL Jim The IIGS technotes that aren't in assembler are in C - I'd like to see a few AFL Jim in Pascal. AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty Matt DTS Well, you're in a position to do something about that, aren't you? :-) JSchober (hi Cecil! We were just talking about you... ;) CecilFret Uh, oh. What did I do now? AFL Jim If you're looking for sample C code, there's a lot of that, too. JSchober :) AFL Jim It's what you haven't done, Cecil :) AFA Gary J :) Windrider5 where do you find this sample C code CecilFret What haven't I done now Jim JSchober (we're probably ruining his otherwise great day... ;) CecilFret Ok guys, my spies tell me no articles on APW C, right? AFL Jim Windrider is looking for some C articles in Call-APPLE. JSchober hehehe... he's a psychic... AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty CecilFret Someone say right! Matt DTS Right! CecilFret GOt two in the mill right now. One on an interface between C and Assembly. AFL Jim Check the development forum libraries - the source code category lists the Matt DTS (now that Cecil's here, I'm out of this one. GA.) CecilFret Second one is on C pointers. AFL Jim language the sample code files are in. ScottG25 ? CecilFret Any C coders out there wishing to make a buck? Our problem is we lack authors CecilFret fluent in the subject. I certainly am not. TKV Good evening... I'm just on with a Pascal GS 640 grafix question... AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty, Scott AFL Jim Coach, GA CecilFret Matt, I can't stay long. Got a lot of stuff to do yet tonight. AFL Jim Hold on TKV, we'll add you to the queue of people waiting to ask. TKV thanks Coach101 Another twist to the question is what level of support Apple is Coach101 giving, or going to give to C? The language is slow, and the AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty, Scott, TKV Coach101 .h files could proably be sped up considerably . My buring question Coach101 is whether apple is going to continue with C, or to abandon it CecilFret Ok guys, we got above zero today for the first time in a week! Coach101 for all practical purposes. The latest issue of A+ contains JSchober [ ()()() Cecil... ;) ] Coach101 an ad from Apple for people in their Cupertino digs and makes mention of Coach101 the need for Pascal but not C. Is Apple going to drop C? GA AFL Jim C is still a current product at Apple. Matt DTS ! AFL Jim I haven't seen the ad so I can't comment on it. Coach101 So is DOS 3.3 ? CecilFret ! AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty, Scott, TKV AFL Jim GA Mat AFL Jim t AFL Jim :) Matt DTS I'll tell you this much: *I* haven't seen any signs it's going away. GA. AFL Jim The same goes here, but Matt blocks my view most of the time. AFL Jim GA Bill BillP While I think Apple has been on the ball to release APW C and MPW/IIGS C and lots of good examples... Coach101 Ok. I was pleased with Tim's execllent (from a support) viewpoint Matt DTS Well, if you'd GET OUT OF MY OFFICE EVERY NOW AND THEN...! BillP I'm surprised there aren't more C compilers for the IIGS. Coach101 article in ApDaLog.... I prefer C since I must use multiple Coach101 machines and "C" is fast becoming a common language across all DaviesDoug Is this open forum tonight?! BillP I do agree with Coach, Apple's C is a little slow... Coach101 levels of machines (little to gargantuan). Thanks.... GA AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Bill), Marty, Scott, TKV BillP I hope it someone else comes out with one, Apple can compete THE GIBBER (a bit?) AFL Jim Pascal and C, Doug. Matt DTS (No, Doug, there are just five of us on the floor. I'm out - GA) CecilFret ! BillP ga AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Cecil), Marty, Scott, TKV AFL Jim The Byte Works is still predicting a Spring release of their C, so that won't AFL Jim take long, Bill. AFL Jim Cecil, GA AFL Floyd ! BillP isn't theirs, like Small C? AFA Gary J Q + (Floyd) CecilFret Ok, I am not a C expert by any stretch of the imagination. CecilFret I would be if I could get pointers straightened out. Anyway, on the speed AFL Jim No, ORCA/C is going to be an ANSI-C compiler. CecilFret issue. A friend of mine taylors his .h files to include only what he uses. CecilFret As a result, his times are much faster. GET my drift? CecilFret ga AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Floyd), Marty, Scott, TKV AFL Jim Floyd, GA with your comment AFL Jim (Cecil, GET is in BASIC and PASCAL :) AFL Floyd I'm anxiously awaiting ORCA C myself. I watch an episode of Star Trek while my APW C program BillP ::hysterical:: AFL Floyd is compiling. :( I too have used selected parts of the .h files to increase compile times. Mike Windrider5 will the transwarp GS speed up the APWC compile times AFL Floyd mentioned that he might add something like pre-compiled headers like LightSpeed C uses. ga AFA Gary J Q = Windrider, Marty, Scott, TKV AFL Jim Maty and Scott, can I move TKV up in the queue? AFL Marty Sure AFL Jim Marty AFA Gary J Q = TKV, Marty, Scott AFL Jim Windrider, WHEN the Transwarp GS is out, it should speed up everything. DaviesDoug ? AFL Jim TKV, go ahead with your question. AFA Gary J Q = TKV, Marty, Scott, Doug TKV Thanks, sorry for lack of protocol : my first conf.. My question is Matt DTS (except the disk-based parts of the compile...GA) TKV I've got 640 colors 16 of then but can't TKV come up with 16 shades of grey? help? AFL Jim ! Matt DTS ! DaviesDoug ! CecilFret Gotta go people, good night JSchober Night, Cecil. AFL Jim TKV, you need to create a color table where the lowest color is $000, then $111 THE GIBBER Night, Cecil :) AFA Gary J Q = TKV (Jim, Matt, Doug), Marty, Scott, Doug DaviesDoug (640 mode JIM) AFL Jim then $222, etc all the way to $FFF which will be the brightest. AFL Jim ooops... I thought he said colors... TKV but what pen masks will yeild grey? AFL Jim Wchih is it, TKV? AFL Jim (that's which for those of you who can't read gibberish) TKV I've got a palette & masks which give colors (16) but can't seem TKV to get the penPatts for greys... :) TKV this is in 640 mode AFL Jim Matt, GA while I find where my kid has carried my books to... Matt DTS (gary - switch Doug and me in the comment queue - GA doug) ScottG25 ! AFL Marty (you mean you have your manuals at home, Jim? :) Matt DTS Oh, Doug's gone. GA, Scott? RHannon Hello John! AFA Gary J Doug bit the bucket. AFA Parik (oh oh, Matt's running the Queue! panick! ;) ScottG25 Patterns for grays are just like the colors for grays except you use AFL Jim back AFA Gary J Q = TVK (Scott, Matt, Doug), Marty, Scott, Doug ScottG25 4 nibbles - in things like SpecialRect... ie $0000, $1111, up to $FFFF. GA TKV I'll give it a go... thanks Scott :) Matt DTS Tracy... Matt DTS ...that's one way to do it, but Eric Soldan of AIIDTS has another which... TKV hi Matt... Matt DTS ...not only can I not recall, but seems to give better results on the... Matt DTS ...LaserWriter. Link your question (AppleLink Apple Edition) to AIIDTS... Matt DTS ...and we'll see if we can get him to reveal the secret. (I'll also see if... Matt DTS ...I can get a tech note from him out of it.) Matt DTS GA MarkMPC :) AFL Jim Doug, GA Matt DTS Oh, quit grinning. TKV will do.. thnks Matt :) AFA Gary J Q = TVK (Doug), Marty, Scott, Doug ScottG25 ! TKV I'm done... thanks folks DaviesDoug Done AFL Jim Scott, another comment? AFA Gary J Q + (Scott) AFL Jim GA ScottG25 Matt, does Erics way have anything to do with Halftoning? AFL Jim (That's for you Matt - GA) Matt DTS You got me. I think it's just a special palette; more I do not know. Sorry. Matt DTS GA. ScottG25 Thanks! ScottG25 GA AFL Jim Sounds like enought interest for a technote. Matt DTS If you have Medley and a LaserWriter, you can check out the results for yoursel AFL Jim OK, Marty GA MarkMPC I've seen them.... :) Matt DTS f, since he used it there (pick gray scales, though). GA (really, this time) AFL Marty -? AFA Gary J Q = Scott, Doug AFL Jim Scott GA AFL Jim (with your question this time) ScottG25 Using APW C and the standard C include files (no shell calls, or GS/OS calls in ScottG25 the source) what is the easiest way to handle wildcards when executing a 'cat' ScottG25 like Unix command? Matt DTS What does 'cat' in Unix do, for starters? JSchober Type a file... ScottG25 cat is like type in the APW shell... AFL Jim It concatenates files together into one file to the output file. AFL Jim If the output file is the character output device, it "types" them. Dave Lyons (Meaning it just sends files to standard-out one after another.) ShrinkIt (yeah, if it's redirected.. :) Matt DTS So where would you take wildcards - in the filename? AFL Jim or to a file, Dave Dave Lyons ! ScottG25 In argv... AFL Jim GA Dave AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Dave), Doug Dave Lyons Standard-out can _be_ a file, Jim. Ha. :) Scott, if you really want to Dave Lyons avoid shell calls, it seems you'll have to open up a directory and call AFL Jim :P Dave Lyons GET_DIR_ENTRY repeatedly & write code to test the names against the wildcard Dave Lyons specified. Not a trivial task: you'd probably be better off using the Dave Lyons INIT_WILDCARD and NEXT_WILDCARD (sumthin like that) shell calls. ga ScottG25 I agree, generally, Dave, but portability is an issue...The way I'm thinking of AFA Gary J Q = Scott, Doug ScottG25 doing it involves something like an ls call and then searching for the closest ScottG25 matches. It's not too easy, tho. Dave Lyons Well, gee...the _portable_ way is for the shell to do all the wildcard Dave Lyons expansion. "ls" isn't even an APW command unless you alias it. (Does the Dave Lyons SHELL shell command expand aliases?) ScottG25 I never said it was going to run under APW.... I did say that it had to avoid AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Dave), Doug ScottG25 shell calls, tho. If you try to pipe a wildcard type into a character output DaviesDoug ! ScottG25 routine that searches for the end of file under Apw, EOF seems to be rather AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Dave, Doug), Doug ScottG25 quickly ignored. ScottG25 So I'm staying AWAY from APW in this little ditty. DaviesDoug The GSOS calls sound like the way to go to me........ DaviesDoug all this on an itty bitty apple.....try a UNIX machine Coach101 ! AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Doug, Coach), Doug AFL Jim Dave, Doug - are you done? DaviesDoug .done. ScottG25 Funny thing coach... the exact routine I am talking about works under Unix. AFL Jim GA Coach ScottG25 No not coach.. I meant doug... sorry.. Coach101 Scott, are you having problems recognizing the EOF when reading Coach101 from ? ScottG25 Yep! Coach101 Are you useing GsOs/ProDos16 reads? ScottG25 What ever does, I'm doing... ScottG25 I haven't broken it out or used NiftyList on it, tho. Coach101 Dont know there, but with a GsOs read a transfer count Coach101 of 0 (zero) with the first byte of the input buffer (the byte that AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Coach), Doug Coach101 was not transferred!) set to zero (0) means EOF. GA ScottG25 Ah... ok....I'll look for that then... Thanks! ScottG25 Done.. AFL Jim Doug, your up on the question queue. GA DaviesDoug Has anyone had any luck with Readln's or Writeln's in a CDA in either ORCA.... AFL Jim (you're) DaviesDoug or TML pascal! AFL Jim They work in ORCA. DaviesDoug Not on mine DaviesDoug have version 1.2, the most recent! AFL Jim Have you started the texttools? DaviesDoug No, should I? ORCA doesn't put that in my code? AFA Gary J Q = Doug AFL Jim and initialized them as Pascal devices? DaviesDoug Great, THANKS!!!! AFA Gary J Another satisfied customer... :) DaviesDoug ? AFL Jim GA Doug, you still have the floor/ DaviesDoug Ok, one more question since the queue is empty........ DaviesDoug The APW manual says that in the Advanced linker you can specify a KIND field... AFL Jim (ut oh) DaviesDoug that is one WORD....I can only get it to recognize one byte.... Matt DTS ! AFL Jim GA Matt DaviesDoug If the value is bigger than one byte the linker tells me it's too large... AFA Gary J Q = Doug (Matt) Matt DTS That's because the APW Manual was written to descibe OMF 2.0, which the Linker DaviesDoug I've talked this over with DTS....just wanted more input AFL Jim When the time is right DaviesDoug and create conversation DaviesDoug .done matt. Matt DTS doesn't generate. (I finally tracked this down in an ERS today.) Ran out of Matt DTS bits in the one-byte field, so it was expanded. I think COMPACT might let... Matt DTS ...you set it, but I haven't tried in a long time. GA. DaviesDoug doesn't....but I wrote a utility..... DaviesDoug that will do it....as soon as JIM posts it! DaviesDoug .done. AFA Gary J Dave Lyons How does the util work? Changes kind of first segment, or what? DaviesDoug you type..... OMF $ AFA Gary J Q = Doug Dave Lyons Ah...good. DaviesDoug lets you change any segment ............ DONE... DaviesDoug must compact it first though.... Really done! AFL Jim Look at that, it's time to call this meeting to a close and there's no Matt DTS Does it return an error if you try it on an OMF 1.0 file? AFL Jim questions left. Matt DTS (well, almost none.) AFA Gary J :) AFL Jim Maaaaaaaaattt DaviesDoug Yes, of course matt, I'm am azzz good programmer!!! Matt DTS (ok) Matt DTS See y'all next week, then! JSchober Night, Matt... AFL Jim Thanks for coming tonight, everyone! Dave Lyons Night, Matt... AFA Gary J Goodnight, Matt. ShrinkIt bye matt AFC Mark Night, Matt Matt DTS G'night, all! AFL Jim See ya tomorrow, Mat DaviesDoug Open conference if anyone wants to stay AFL Jim right, Doug DaviesDoug I have lot of questions....as matt knows Dave Lyons Jim, see if you can find out about the Note Seq priority question...I don't Dave Lyons know where else to look. AFL Jim I've noticed that, too, Doug and I've only been out here a week. DaviesDoug :) AFL Jack Jim, can you answer a 'hardware' question for me? AFL Jim I've got to go read the boards. Remember, a contest is starting this month in Dave Lyons We can try, Jack.... AFL Jim both the Mac and Apple II Development Forums. I'll have details up online this AFL Jim week. AFL Jack what is the size of the GS ROM? I want to update an older GS . AFL Jim Sure Jack JSchober 128K, Jack. Banks FE and FF. DaviesDoug Anyone know how to get a CMS drive to work with the Apple SCSI card? AFL Jack ok, thanks! :) AFL Jim Mine's about an inch by an inch and a half :) Dave Lyons Yes, both ROM 00 and ROM 01 are 128K. AFA Gary J :) AFL Jack California like getting to you, huh Jim? AFL Jim yep JSchober Doug... well, it'll work just fine, but the >32 meg volumes must be partitioned AFL Jack all this sunshine.... AFL Marty AFA Gary J Jim, you need to have your OA-I ID changed. :) JSchober using GS/OS or whatever. The CMS hardware partitioning will conflict with the DaviesDoug Mine won't even be recognized.... DaviesDoug I have the version c roms JSchober Apple software partitioning. DaviesDoug It works with the CMS card just fine AFL Jim Yep, I just got a "real" address today. AFA Gary J You found a house? AFL Jack Anyone know where I can get an apple SCSI card for a good price? JSchober Can you access/format it with the ADU, Doug? Dave Lyons Gary, Jim's info is right...he's _from_ Kansas City...doesn't say he's actually Dave Lyons there! :) DaviesDoug Any pins need setting on the card? AFL Jim You must reinitialize, Doug DaviesDoug NO AFA Gary J hehe! Right, Dave. JSchober Ummm... (does the Apple card HAVE pins??) I think all ya' gotta do is format JSchober it. However, on a >32 meg volume, the first partition WILL be accessible with DaviesDoug Well...this really isn't a CMS drive.... JSchober the Apple card, no matter what. DaviesDoug it's a make-shift drive..... JSchober (oh, it's not a CMS drive... that changes things... :) DaviesDoug it's a conair drive (it's a SCSI drive)