America Online APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG November 21, 1989 10:00 pm eastern time Topic: Apple IIGS System Software 5.0.2 Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet) AFL Dyfet Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight's topic is System Software 5.0.2 AFL Dyfet We'll be using PROTOCOL this evening, so if you have a question, type a "?" AFL Dyfet on a line by itself, or if you have a comment on the current topic, type a "!" AFL Dyfet on a line by itself. AFL Dyfet Okay, Mac Hater, you have the floor now :) Mac Hater Is 5.03 coming out soon? There are still a few bugs in 5.02 AFL Dyfet GA Matt... Matt DTS Apple has announced no plans for any system software beyond 5.0.2. (Of course, they've said... Matt DTS ...there will *be* some, but no specifics.) GA. Mac Hater Apple does recognize the bugs though, right? done AFL Dyfet I am sure that DTS continues to catalog any new bug reports as before, and so I AFL Dyfet am sure that they are at least fully aware of what problems may exist. Mac Hater sounds good. ga AFL Dyfet I would add that if anyone does have any bugs to report with System Software AFL Dyfet 5.02, they should be contacting Apple. Never assume all bugs are already AFL Dyfet known by them :). AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe that the next question is from Dwight. You have the floor now. DwightW1 we still are unable to hook to a scanner with the new GS/OS software? ga. AFL Dyfet GA Matt... Matt DTS Actually, it's only with 5.0 and later that you *can* hook a scanner up; previous versions of the Matt DTS SCSI drivers would not recognize things other than hard disks or CD-ROMs. However, Apple has not Matt DTS supplied a scanner driver at this point. (But it is now possible to write one.) Matt DTS 5.0.2 has no new features over 5.0. It is merely a maintenance release. See GS/OS Technical Note #1 Matt DTS for all the details. GA. DwightW1 i see... now for the driver.......... DwightW1 ga AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from GS Matt..GA Matt... GS Matt Are there any plans to make the GS tools re-entrant in upcoming versions... GS Matt ...to allow programs like MultiFinder GS to be written? ga AFL Dyfet Strange this would be brought up...GA Matt...I also have a few comments to add. Matt DTS Not that anything I say *would* discourage speculation , but Apple people really can't... Matt DTS ...comment on this one way or another, because either way would imply that we are or aren't going Matt DTS to do something. GA. AFL Dyfet GA Dave... Dave Lyons I can't comment about future plans either, but I should note that Dave Lyons a MultiFinder sort of thing does not require reentrancy of the usual Dave Lyons sort (the kind you have to worry about w/ toolbox calls during interrupts). ga AFL Dyfet To further elaborate on Dave's comments, re-entrancy itself is NOT a real AFL Dyfet limitation to multi-tasking, in general. It only represents a slight AFL Dyfet 'challenge' to overcome. I was, and may still, be putting up a short series of AFL Dyfet articles related to multi-tasking within the GS environment as it exists AFL Dyfet today. GS Matt Okay guys...(dreams of MultiFinder GS and Outline Fonts in System 6.0.)...ga! AFL Dyfet Okay, does anyone else have any questions or comments at this point? That AFL Dyfet Queue is looking awfully empty... AFL Dyfet Okay, Windrider, GA, you have the floor now. Windrider5 for the novice .. could you define re-entrancy and multi-tasking AFL Dyfet Multi-tasking means, in the simplest sense, that your machine would be doing AFL Dyfet two or more things at the same time. In some operating systems, for example, AFL Dyfet the user can run multiple applications simulataneously, with system resources AFL Dyfet and CPU time devided up for each running application. Maybe Coach would do AFL Dyfet better at explaining this :)..GA Coach... Coach101 Chicken :) ... AFL Dyfet :) Coach101 Well from a large system (hold the boos) point of view there is a very Coach101 fine line between multi-tasking and timesharing. But both (in a single Coach101 cpu) system involve, as Dyfet said, having the system working on more than Coach101 one task "sort-of" simultaneously. With a single CPU the machine is, at Coach101 any finite instant in time, working on only one task. But if the machine Coach101 switches tasks fast enough and if one of the tasks has a lot of idle Coach101 time (like the time it takes a user to type, or think of what to type Coach101 or click) then the illusion of the machine doing two things at once is Coach101 given to the user. .... Re-entrancy... Coach101 When you write a subroutine/function/procedure you will store various Coach101 quantities in various locations. Now, if your code were to be re-entered, Coach101 which means while you are executing your code the system switches tasks Coach101 and enters your code again at the beginning, then you code "could" get Coach101 confused as to the value of a variable; like, which incarnation of the Coach101 variable MyIndex is to be used. This is a particular problem with Coach101 "static" variables and almost never a problem with auto variables. Here Coach101 again there is a fine line between the definitions of "re-entrant" and Coach101 "recursive". Recursive means that a function/procedure is allowed to call Coach101 itself (think of a "factorial" function for a good example). Re-entrancy Coach101 means that the function can be re-entered at any time and from anywhere... Coach101 I hope I was not too wordy and helped with my explanation.... ga AFL Dyfet That is a very good explanation, Coach :)...Okay, I see the Queue is once AFL Dyfet again empty, and just waiting for more comments or questions :) Coach101 Yeah, my fingers are all warmed up now too :) AFA Gary J :) AFL Dyfet Okay, Coach, you have the floor now... Coach101 Lets see if I can phrase this such that Matt will not have to hit his Coach101 macro about unannounced products, ideas, etc.... Coach101 Apple has given us 5.0 (and its derivatives) which was a major departure Coach101 and improvement over P16 and GS/OS 4.0. If I draw a parallel to the Coach101 ProDos-8 environment (where *nothing* other than fixes is done), would it be Coach101 safe to assume that GS/OS has not yet reached that plateau. Put another Coach101 way, should one expect that some more major software things are a distinct Coach101 possibility in the future? ga AFL Dyfet There have been a number of things hinted at in recent Apple II Technotes AFL Dyfet already, such as a desire to produce communication drivers...I see Matt would AFL Dyfet like to add some comments, GA Matt :) Matt DTS 1) GS/OS is logically much more extensible (through FSTs and drivers) than P8 ever was. Matt DTS 2) P8 is also a special case. It is occupying nearly all the memory it has reserved in the 64K Matt DTS space, and adding new features would be difficult. GS/OS does not have this problem yet, as long as Matt DTS Apple is willing to make future versions require a larger base system if necessary. Matt DTS I don't think the IIgs System Software is at a point where no more changes *can* be made without Matt DTS serious problems, which is where ProDOS 8 currently sits. GA. Coach101 Thank you... AFA Gary J there's a safe answer :) Coach101 But always read between the lines.... He could have said..... AFL Dyfet One can get a strong indication as to some areas that Apple has had some AFL Dyfet interest in future enhancements from things they have said and published in AFL Dyfet tech notes and other sources. AFA Gary J Yes. Reading between the lines.. the future of the Apple II looks bright. AFL Dyfet GA Coach...you have the floor again... Coach101 Apple is currently pushing both CD-Rom and Object Oriented Programming Coach101 pretty heavy in the Mac area. The CD-Rom player will also work on the Matt DTS ! Coach101 II-GS. Two questions... 1) Is Apple going to pursue the OOP approach Coach101 on the II-GS (like provide tools) and 2) has Apple seen any signs of Coach101 commercial CD-Rom offerings for the II line yet... ga AFL Dyfet GA Matt... Matt DTS Apple is very interested in hearing from developers about what kind of object-oriented tools they'd Matt DTS like to see. We obviously believe OOP to be the wave of the future for most programming, but how Matt DTS that applies to the Apple II depends on the needs of our developers and their capabilities to use Matt DTS the OOP tools to produce creative and inventive products. Please send your comments to Developer Matt DTS Tools at the address listed in the back of the APW or MPW IIgs manuals. Matt DTS 2) I personally have not seen Apple II-specific CD-ROM products; I imagine this is largely due to Matt DTS the 8-bit limitation of four partitions of 32 MB each (ProDOS). Using a different file system makes Matt DTS it *IIgs* specific, which is a smaller market. However, Apple does have information on a starter Matt DTS kit for all developers (Apple II included) which can get your product burned into 100 CD-ROMs Matt DTS including mastering, for $1500. Contact AIIDTS through normal channels for more information. GA. AFL Dyfet Okay, thank you Matt..GA Coach... Coach101 I sae that price Matt and was very IMPRESSED! One question though, was Coach101 how much of a deal it was. That is, not saying that Apple was not giving Coach101 the developer a good deal, but what kind of volume would one have to Coach101 have in order to get prices like that on their own... If you know? ga Matt DTS I really can't answer that; I have no idea. The evangelists for multimedia also do a lot of Apple II Matt DTS work and they put together the package for our developers; they really need to answer that. I Matt DTS think the prices for volumes of 1,000 are less are *fairly* reasonable, but I can't quote numbers. GA Coach101 Thanks... AFL Dyfet Okay, are there any further comments on Coach's question? DwightW1 (i'm not sure i understood it... can it be rephrased? Coach101 The question or the answer :) DwightW1 the question please :)... Matt DTS (We only have a few minutes left - let someone else rephrase it! :) AFA Gary J heheh Matt DTS Coach101 Matt is always good at being terse and correct. GA Matt :) AFL Dyfet :) Coach101 I do it via FlashNote Chaos 89 Can you give a short explanation of OOP? Matt DTS I don't think there is a short explanation of OOP. :) AFL Dyfet Okay, Chaos, I see you also have a question not very easy to explain in a quick AFL Dyfet summary :)...Well, OOP, or Object Oriented Programming, is more a different way AFL Dyfet of approaching programming problems than anything else. It involves the idea AFL Dyfet ...the idea that maybe I will be saved by another fine explanation from Coach:) AFA Gary J :) Coach101 But we are out of time.... DwightW1 (thanks coach101) AFA Gary J nah.. :) AFL Dyfet Now, Coach, that would be the easy way out :)....Seriously, perhaps someone Coach101 Matt and Dave will probably have to correct me here since I am not all Coach101 that up on OOP, but.... AFL Dyfet knows of a good book to introduce one to OOP... Coach101 Nope.... Thats a lot like trying to explain HyperCard in a paragraph ... Rowdy2 How about Borland's Turbo Pascal Object Oriented Programming Guide? :) AFA Gary J There's a book on OOP for the Macintosh.. (in APDA) AFL Dyfet I would suggest, Chaos, that you try posting that question in of the message AFL Dyfet forums, and let people respond there, where they will have more time and space AFA Gary J APDA = APDAlog AFL Dyfet for a helpful explanation. Chaos 89 Thanks Coach101 Maybe we should have an OOP night to gather opinions and comments.... AFL Dyfet That is an interesting idea, also, Coach... AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any more questions or comments for tonight? Coach101 Its kind of boring when you cant ask questions that will cause Matt Coach101 to answer "summer", or "winter", or :) AFA Gary J ..to use his macro? AFL Dyfet :) Dave Lyons I can! Dave Lyons Matt...what season comes after spring but before fall? AFA Gary J heheh Matt DTS Baseball season. AFL Dyfet :) AFA Gary J :)