To: 386users@TWG.COM Subject: 80386 mailing list, vol 4 #13 Date: 28 Feb 89 08:27:11 EST (Tue) From: "Wm E. Davidsen" 80386 User's mailing list vol 4 #13 Feb 27, 1989 In this issue: Re: 386 "real" mode access beyond 1M using data_32 instruction prefix real time operating system/hardware? Computer Products United 386 16MHZ Windows/386 Development Re: null pointer assignment? Load tsr in "resrved" memory (D000:0000 etc)?! Re: any info about 486? VP/ix performance? QEMM and 386 inboard/pc SCO XENIX 2.2.4 SCSI and VGA adaptors Inboard 386 question The addresses for the list are now: 386users@TWG.COM - for contributions to the list or ...!uunet!TWG.COM!386users 386users-request@TWG.COM - for administrivia or ...!uunet!TWG.COM!386users-request P L E A S E N O T E If you want to get on or off the list, or change your address, please mail to the 386users-request address, or the message will be delayed by having to hand forward it (for your convenience, not mine). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wbeebe@bilver.UUCP (bill beebe) Subject: Re: 386 "real" mode access beyond 1M using data_32 instruction prefix Date: 18 Feb 89 05:45:52 GMT In article <7187@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> chasm@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Charles Marslett) writes: >It certainly does: Intel (for reasons known only to their architects, real >world programmers would have never done it that way!) always verifies that >the address generated in real mode is less than 00110000h (so the 386 cannot >access any more real-mode memory than the 286. > >You would have thought they should have learned a lesson from the 286's >one way mode switch . . . programmers like to be able to make mistakes! >Idiot proofing an instruction set makes it an idiot's instruction set. > >> Is it even possible to access above 1M without going into full protected >> mode? > >Nope.... > The 80386 addresses the same amount of "real" address as the 80286 as does the 8086. This is called backward compatibility and provides an easy path from the original up to the 80386 and beyond. As far as addressing memory above 1 meg, there are several ways the 80386 can do this. The first does not require full protection, and allows special LIM emulation drivers and Windows 386 to access the high (> 1 meg ) memory. The 80386 supports paging where a logical address is translated into a physical address. You can use this method to access code and data stored in the higher address. In fact, when the original Intel 301 was introduced, they also sold software from Phoenix Software called Control386. This software used paging to backfill the 301's DOS memory from 512K up to 640K by paging memory installed above 1 meg. This was 32-bit memory and when running had absolutely no impact on real-mode DOS programs. The second method, protected mode, can be switched into and out of under software control by setting the Protection Enable bit of Control Register 0. This is a great oversimplification. If you want more information, you should read chapters 10 and 14 of the 1986 80386 Programmer's Reference Manual. In any event, once protected mode is entered and a _proper_ environment created, the 80386 can address any location in 4 Gbytes of physical memory. The 80386 is also not limited to a 64K segment limitation in protected mode. With the granularity bit clear in the descriptor, segments can have a maximum limit of 1 meg. With the granularity bit set, segments can have a maximum limit of 4 Gbytes. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Feb 89 23:07:08 EST From: Kenneth Salisbury Subject: real time operating system/hardware? I'm looking for a realtime operating system to install in my Dell System 310 20mhz 80386 based system. I've tried the unix-like system from Lynx Real-Time Systems Inc. (Campbell, CA) on one of their own 386 systems and it is very nice, but it seems to balk at the Chips and Technologies processor in my Dell. I'd like to consider other systems that might do the job before making a final decision. I'm in the process of porting servo control code that runs at 200Hz on a VAX 11/750 to an OEMable 386 for the process of controlling a 12 axis robot hand. I'd appreciate any leads on operating systems and processors that might be useful. Please reply to JKS@wh.ai.mit.edu or leave a message at (617) 253-5834 if you have any suggestions. I'll post useful information to this mailing list. Thanks, Ken Salisbury MIT AI Lab - Robotics Group ------------------------------ From: bash@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Basham) Subject: Computer Products United 386 16MHZ Date: 21 Feb 89 17:27:42 GMT Recently I decided to upgrade from a Tandy 1000SX to the Real World. I already had a 40 Mb miniscribe HD (which has performed like a trooper!), a paradise VGA card, and a Sony mulit-frequency monitor, so I really only needed a base system. I initially looked at 286 machines most of which cost around $1500 for a base system. By chance I ran across an add for Computer Products United in PC magazine. CPU advertised a 386SX 16MHZ with 1Mb memory, 1.2Mb floppy, dual floppy/HD controller, 1 parallel, 2 serial, and 1 game port for $1700. They had some 386 machines at 20 and 25MHZ for more money. After some thought I called and ordered the 386SX. It fit my budget and put me a little closer to the front line of technology. I was told the machine would ship in one week. One week later I called to verify shipment. I was told that it would be delayed a few more days. I called a few days later and was told they didn't have any 386SX chips (they assemble their own motherboard) and my machine was on hold. Then, the salesman said: "How about I give you a regular 386 at 16 MHZ, same config, same price?" Me: "You mean a 286?" Salesman: "No, a 386." Me: "Same config, ?" Salseman" "Yes." Me: "Same price?" Salesman: "Yes." Me "Let me think for about .1 microseconds...<.1 microsecond delay>I'll take it!" Well, the machine arrived later that week and it has been great. I've ran as many tests and diagnostics on it as I can and have no complaints. It may not be quite as fast as those 20 and 25MHZ machines, but hey, I can deal with it. The moral of the story is: I had good luck with Computer Products United and they have my recommendation. Tom Basham ------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The world was going down the tubes. They needed a scapegoat. They found Wayne." ------------------------------ From: MJB@cup.portal.com (Martin J Brown-Jr) Subject: Windows/386 Development Date: 22 Feb 89 09:27:12 GMT I have recently begun working with Windows/386 and do not have the Windows development kit that Microsoft sells. Before I put up my money to buy the kit, I want to be sure that what I NEED to do in the Windows/386 environment to make it REALLY functional is possible. Under Windows/386 as it now stands, OFFICIALLY: 1)Is it possible to add custom gadgets to an application's window? 2)And specify the gadget's image? 3)Have a window that DOESN'T jump to the front when you click inside it? 4)Add gadget's and borders to any side of a window? 5)Make the window's text (or whatever) scroll WHILE the "scroll gadget"(?) is being moved? 6)Add any or all of the above to the Windows/386 system software to work with any windows compatible program that is loaded? I've been using an Amiga (with 2.5megs) for the last 3.5 years, and as far as the windowing system goes Windows/386 can't compare in functionality. Of course, application software is something else altogether. :-> I've used Amiga windowing terminology above, but you get the idea. Generally, how customizable is the Windows/386 system? Also, how are the above questions answered in regards to XWindows? I haven't been exposed to XWindows and don't know that much about it, but I hope to change that next week at UniForum. Thanx for any info or ideas you might have on the subject! - MJB - ------------------------------ From: dmurdoch@watstat.waterloo.edu (Duncan Murdoch) Subject: Re: null pointer assignment? Date: 22 Feb 89 13:45:29 GMT In article <977@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes: ... stuff deleted ... >What this message means is that when the program got ready to exit, >it found that someone had altered the Microsoft copyright message >at DS:0. The slowest but easiest way to find this program with >CodeView is to set up a tracepoint like this: > > TPB DS:0 l20 If he can find a 386, he should get Turbo Debugger and use a hardware breakpoint. His program will run at full speed, but screech to a halt if anybody touches DS:0. Duncan Murdoch ------------------------------ From: mg@notecnirp.Princeton.EDU (Michael Golan) Subject: Load tsr in "resrved" memory (D000:0000 etc)?! Date: 23 Feb 89 07:13:42 GMT I have a 386 machine with the "neat" chips set. IT seems that the only way to use the "reserved" (384K) of memory above the 640K (out of 1M ram) is as bios shadow and/or as ram in locations C800:000 to F000:0000 (160K). I know that many people have "ram holes" unused in these locations. The only use for it I could find in simtel20 is a program called ADJREM which creates a ram disk from this memory. I think it should be easy to make dos believe it has memory up to F000:0, then "allocate" it all up to C800:0 and then load tsrs, and free the memory upto 640K. Does anyone have a program to do that? can it really be done? Email or post, I will summarize results (if any! my last request was on the paradize vga plus 16 card was completely ignored ...). Thanks for your time Michael Golan mg@princeton.edu ------------------------------ From: erickson@carroll1.UUCP (Dave Erickson) Subject: Re: any info about 486? Date: 23 Feb 89 02:48:01 GMT In article <220600002@s.cs.uiuc.edu> fenton@s.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > >Does anybody have any information or know a source of info about the >80486? Thanks. > > > >wayne Fenton >University of Illinois @Urbana-Champaign >fenton@s.cs.uiuc.edu Speaking of the 486..... We are doing a group project for a computer architecture class here at Carroll. We have to do a complete report on the Intel 80xxx family of cpus. Finding stuff on 8088 to 80386 will be no real problem but 486..... What we need specifically is register info (length, size, number) data bus size/address bus size, addressing, clock speed/speeds, co-processors, cache and virtual memory. Cost would be nice but it's no big deal. We need to get very specific with our report, not to the point of circuit diagrams or anything, but we need to at least sound intelligent. Of course, talking to Intel or IBM gives us nothing as everything is under wraps still. This is due about the 8th of March so promptness would be appreciated. Please respond to erickson@carroll1.UUCP I'll post anything really juicy if possible (I will keep secrets if requested) I'm new to this group, so my apologies if this has already been done. Thanks Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Feb 89 16:29:15 est From: Rich Goldschmidt Subject: VP/ix performance? I have been evaluating a MS-Windows application under VP/ix which interacts with Unix, by invoking either a shell or a Unix application. The performace has been disappointing, even when the Unix application is moved to a different box, and VP/ix is using the serial port for I/O. It takes between 2 and 5 times longer to display a large file on a 16MHz 386 (running Interactive 1.0.6 with 4 MB of memory) as it does on a 12 MHz 286 running DOS. I am interested in other peoples observations about VP/ix performance, and what kind of application environment and hardware configuration they are using. We are still looking for ways to improve performance, and I would welcome any suggestions. Rich Goldschmidt CCI Computers Usenet: uunet!rlgvax!golds or sun!sundc!rlgvax!golds Internet: rlgvax!golds@uunet.uu.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Feb 89 08:14:32 CST From: Joel Kennedy Subject: QEMM and 386 inboard/pc I have QEMM running on an inboard/pc. All is well for the most part, I think the inboard is a great buy and gives great performance. Qemm seems to take up about 100k more memory than I can account for. Does anyone know where it goes and whether it has to go there? Thanks. Joel K ------------------------------ From: steinmetz!uunet!sir-alan!mikes Subject: SCO XENIX 2.2.4 SCSI and VGA adaptors Date: Fri Feb 24 09:55:51 1989 According to my 2.2.4 installation manual the IBM VGA adaptor will work with SCO XENIX 2.2.4. The Tandy VGA won't (experience) in its default setup; I cannot find any information on settings that will work. I lost my copy of the list of compatible adaptors; can anyone help me? I realize that XENIX does not support VGA modes (yet) but do not wish to have to spend another $800 to replace an EGA system with a VGA system in the future. The 386 XENIX system, by the way, will replace the RS 6000 running my XENIX bbs/anonymous uucp archive site. I will be archiving 386 XENIX/UNIX software on that system (already have the entire comp.sources.[unix,misc] archive on line. Number is 814 337 0348 (2400) 814 337 3159 (TB+ FAST); BBS login is "ubbs", uucp logins of "uucp" (list in /usr/spool/uucppublic/FILES) and "pdsrc" (list in /usr/spool/pdsrc/all.subjects.Z). of cash or their owner's time. Michael L. Squires uucp: {necntc,cwjcc,hoptoad}!ncoast!peng!sir-alan!mikes Department of Political Science ..!{convex,daisy,pitt,uunet}!sir-alan!mikes Allegheny College BITNET: mikes%sir-alan@pitt.UUCP (VAX) Meadville, PA 16335 MIKES AT SIR-ALAN!PITT.UUCP (IBM) Office: 814 332 3347 Internet: sir-alan!mikes@vax.cs.pittsburgh.edu sir-alan!mikes@uunet.uu.net Home: 814 337 5528 Data: 814 {337-3159,337-0348} login of "ubbs" for BBS ------------------------------ From: johnm@trsvax.UUCP Subject: Inboard 386 question Date: 21 Feb 89 17:56:00 GMT If you have an Inboard 386 in a Tandy 1200 or IBM PC (or any machine of the old 4.77Mhz family) you can answer me a question. How much of a speedup could I expect from installing one? Obviously the hard disk will still be the same old turtle but the cpu should scream. Is it at least a factor of 5 overall (say for a compile)? John Munsch ------------------------------ End of 80386 M/L ****************