My note on Ketamine raised some response from the net, and I thought I would respond to mind-l in general, as well as to the specific folks who were curious. *IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER* I am a scientific PhD, not a physician Neither I nor my employer take any responsibility for its accuracy or possible use. First, ketamine is in current use as both a veternary and a human anesthetic. It is called "dissociative" in action, which means that the mind is "separated" from the body. In many cases, this separation results in profound hallucinations and the sensation of entering another reality. In human use, a benzodiazapine like Versed is generally used along with ketamine to induce amnesia concerning the "emergence reactions". The most easily obtained reference about ketamine is the Physicians Desk Reference. Under the heading "Ketalar", this gives a great deal of information about the drug. Of course, since this is a general medical reference, much of the info of interest to mind-l is not present, but it should be read anyway. Perhaps the most important property of ketamine is that, despite the induction of both anesthesia and dissociation, the cough and gag reflexes *USUALLY* are not affected. This means that, contrary to most other agents which will produce anesthesia and/or unconsciousness, it is very unlikely that a person using ketamine will aspirate their own saliva and other excretions. This is *NOT* guarenteed, but is a pretty good bet. Solo use, however, remains dangerous. Ketamine is generally available for non-medical uses as ketamine hydrochloride. Some major chemical houses carry it at a cost of about $10/gm. I don't know if there are other sources which are cheaper, or if the veterinary form is easily available. Dosages are discussed in the PDR, but are generally in the range of 100-500 mg. Conventional useage is intravenous or intramuscular, but "recreational" use is apparently more often through insufflation (snorting) or solution ingestion. These latter approaches are probably only effective with the hydrochloride form, but the reported doses are similar to the conventional medical doses. As in all such experiments, if you must do this, be sure of your materials and start slow, with small doses separated by enough time to really come back to Earth between experiments. Mahalo ============================================================================= Message-ID: <185302Z23111993@anon.penet.fi> Newsgroups: alt.drugs From: an49019@anon.penet.fi (the ticktockman) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 18:47:29 UTC Subject: Re: Ketamine trip >I tried to get some info from the net gurus as to what a correct dosage of >Ketamine would be, but never got a response. So I guesstimated, and took >4 mL of Ketaset (equal to 400mg Ketamine HCl). I had an empty stomach. I >took it orally, pouring it down my throat with a spoon - >I had heard that it tasted awful, which it did, so I avoided my tongue, >and chased it down with an immediate mouthful of orange. No problem. FWIW, a friend of mine who does K regularly insists that the _only_ way to do it is intramuscularly (i.e., once you try it that way, you will always want to do it that way). He says an optimal dose this way is 100 mg (ml). It puts him in a state where he is completely divorced from his body and is projected into some astral plane as pure consciousness. He says you could drag his body up and down the stairs while he is in this state and he would have no idea that this was happening. To him, doing K this way is as close as he can come to dying without dying, and it is always a beautiful, wondrous experience. He claims that taking it orally produces nowhere near as intense an experience, but you seem like you had a really excellent trip. I've never done the stuff myself, just thought I'd pass along this second-hand account for anyone interested ... the ticktockman ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin@anon.penet.fi. ============================================================================= From: squest@moonwatcher.avrtech.com (Steve J. Quest) Newsgroups: alt.drugs Subject: Ketamine. Message-ID: <763499976.85snx@moonwatcher.avrtech.com> Date: Sat, 12 Mar 94 19:19:36 GMT In article magnuson@sscnet.ucla.edu writes: > >Does anybody know about this? I wonder: what do we have to tell vetinarians as >to our pets' symptoms to get them to prescribe ketamine? How expensive is it? >What's the recommended dosage for us humans? Any warnings from those who have >done it? Any other sources besides vets? Can you advise it? etc., etc. Ketamine HCl, available as 100mg/ml injectable under the trade name Vetalar (Parke-Davis) and Ketaset (Bristol) is used in veterinary work as a general anesthetic. The dosage used produces analgesia but with normal pharyngeal and laryngeal reflexes. It only causes mild respiratory depression. The advantage of this anesthetic is that you don't need to support respiration while performing any procedures. This allows for a one-man operation. It is so widely used in the Veterinary profession that I don't think abuse will cause it to be discontinued, but I can see that it will one day be serialized and accountable as a controlled substance (as all barbituates currently are). If you think that you will be able to go into a vets office and say that you are going to anesthetize your cat, forget it. They only use this drug for their surgical procedures, there is no reason why anyone would need to buy this drug. Think about stealing the drug instead, or fake that you are a vet and purchase them from a wholesale drug supplier. Vet pharmaceuticals are not watched by DEA all that much, and the distributors are very lax. At least they were when I was in the business. ----------------------------------------- Ketamine is chemically 2-(2-Chlorophenyl)-2-(methylamino)- cyclohexanone. Vitamin K's are naphthoquinones. Not the same thing! Too much vitamin K and you will give yourself a stroke, this is not a recreational drug! Ketamine is used as a human and animal anesthetic. Vets use it for cats or any small animal and reptiles. I can't say what an IM (intra- muscular) injection is like, but an IV injection is very similar to when someone takes a crowbar and smacks you as hard as they can to the base of your skull! Don't be standing up when you do this, you will hit the floor hard! Better yet, be in an easy chair, you will immediately lose all body control, very frightening to say the least. Experiment with a few mg at a time. The insert states that the recommended dosage for anesthesia (5 to 10 minute duration) is 2mg/kg. A 70kg adult would then use 140mg or about 1 and a half CC's of injectable for a 10 minute duration of anesthesia. Of course it is the coming OFF not the going ON that is where all the wierd stuff occurs. Medically these are called emergence reactions, but I call them hallucinations! :) If being awake and paralyzed doesn't scare you, the hallucination is cool. If it frightens you, or if you become frightened, you will snowball into a very bad trip. Mood is everything on Ketamine, and like all recreational drugs, after you have used it a few times, you get a feel for it and are not so apt to be frightened by it. For those who have smoked angel dust (PCP; HOG; Phencyclidine) the effects are about the same, only you retain less awareness while under Ketamine. I can definately say that you want to take a dosage about 1/4 the recommended dose to not totally go into anesthesia, but just dangle around the half conscious state. A very cool feeling! :) For me it is about 40mg injected IV with a tuberculin syringe (1cc 27g 1/2). A little more for a little deeper, but going all the way into anesthesia is not all that special, you can't really think or remember while under the full dose, I don't recommended it on your first try. Always have a health care professional available while you try this to maintain your airway should you have a negative reaction to the drug. As with all noxious chemicals, you will feel like shit for several hours after the experience, especially if you try to walk, carry on a conversation, or do any activity that requires mental clarity. BE CAREFUL! Learn about anesthesia before attempting to play with anesthetic drugs................sq -- squest@moonwatcher.avrtech.com \ ( ( | ) ) All opinions expressed reflect ================================> /_\ those of AVR Technologies, our ==> MicroPower FM Broadcasting / /\_/\ staff and Gozur the Destructor ============================================================================= From: crow@CSOS.ORST.EDU (Corey Green) Newsgroups: alt.drugs Subject: Excellent Ketamine Read Date: 27 May 1994 16:29:12 GMT Message-ID: <2s574o$gup@jadzia.CSOS.ORST.EDU> An excellent book on Ketamine is called "Journey's to the bright side" I'm failing to remember the author's name but she also wrote the "Seth speaks" books. Journey"s is completely about her experience's with "K" it seem's that her husband was an anasthesiologist and regularly dosed her.The story goes that she eventually started going to the same familier place or dimension and meeting certain beings.She acually started a therapy group called Samadhi,I believe in Seattle.The book is facinating,though it was out of print when I found it in 1979.Unfortunatly she was murdered in Seattle.Her husband believe's because she was writing an expose' on a local satanic cult,apparently they never found her head.Anyway John Lilly the "Dolphin guy" has some pretty amazing stories about "K" also.The same kind of experience"s as Journey's. Find your way back, crow.