From: TURTLE To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: aristotle Date & Time: 08/02/90 01:32:58 Message Number 7103 Aristotle is not the answer. People can borrow all the time, few can create. Do you rreally think you can walk through my tree? If you believe, both are there. An orange tree in the room doesn't have to be in the mind. It can be by the door. Aquinas was a Christian. His tree was in Heaven. Others may not be. They need not collide either. I can walk through his heaven. What I see may be different. Nor does an orange have to be an orange. Perhaps Aqunias knew that. =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/02/90 01:43:45 Message Number 7104 >How about when we weren't so enlightened about black people? How about when we weren't so enlightened about black people? I can only hope that eventually we'll be as enlightened about homosexuals. Regardless of any arguments about morality being in the public perception or whatever, I still believe that bigotry is immoral regardless of the group it's turned against--black, homosexual, whatever. What's yer point? =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/02/90 01:47:50 Message Number 7105 >Things weren't ment to go like that...etc, etc... That explains your reasons for finding the behavior itself unappealing, I suppose. What it /doesn't/ explain is your condemnation of gays, your refusal to associate with "those people" in any way, your...well, for lack of a better word, bigotry. Read my lips: I'm not at all attracted to the practice. The thought of sleeping with another man turns my stomach. That has nothing to do with the PEOPLE who engage in that practice. Yes, I think the eggplant metaphor is perfectly apt: the thought of putting an eggplant in my mouth makes me ill, but why on earth would any rational person refuse to associate with people who like eggplant? You don't have to have a fascination for sleeping with other men to treat gays like humans and not walking stereotypes. For some reason which is beyond me but which doesn't seem to relate to your view of homosexuality as a "sickness," you seem to behave as if /all/ homosexuals are stereotypes, they all have the same character- istics, etc, etc. =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/02/90 01:54:37 Message Number 7106 >Didn't your mother teach you anything? I can't speak for Beatle, but my mother taught me respect for others, toleration, and a fierce belief in the individual liberties of other people. On the whole, I've found it more useful than some narrow-minded self-righteous morality. That was an easy question. Next! =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Reality Date & Time: 08/02/90 02:02:10 Message Number 7107 >Philosophy - weird stuff but a good excercise for the mind. Hmm...I look upon it more as mental masturbation myself. =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Guitars Date & Time: 08/02/90 02:05:31 Message Number 7108 Great Idea #225312241402: Attach a set of pickups to a bowed psaltry-- plug the result into an amp and turn on the juice. I'd /love/ to know what it'd sound like. Not that that's on the subject or anything, you understand. =========== From: TURTLE To: BEATLE Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 08/02/90 02:07:17 Message Number 7109 >MTV caters to the masses... Yes, unfortunately. Didn't start out that way, but demographics has ruined the form. =========== From: TURTLE To: -ALL- Subject: Mythagoras #2 Date & Time: 08/02/90 05:20:53 Message Number 7110 Yes, folks, it's here! Mythagoras #2, back from the printers and now available. Issue 2 features a very impressive color cover on glossy stock; art by Juan Alfonso, Michael Hirtes, Zjonni, Eric Blumrich, Maggie de Alarcon, and more; fiction by Watts Martin, Gary Jurman, and Kevin Higgins; the first installment of an ongoing series by Lawrence Schoen; and all sorts of neat stuff. Contrary to what certain doomsayers were predicting, the cover looks /really good/. Issue 2 should be available at the Time Machine in Bradenton by Friday; cover price is $3.50; 36 pages. Get 'em while they're hot! =========== From: KEN OBER To: BEATLE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/02/90 05:56:49 Message Number 7111 I will take a quote that Mike Hickmon gave to me one day while we were speaking of the subject... "Every male has a homosexual thought atleast /once/ in his life.... whether he acts apon (upon?) it is his own choice." I think that statement says it all ... Most of us choose not to act apon it, and some of us do .... I know people who have carried on a homosexua relationship exactly once in their life for an extended period of time, and when that ended, they never did anything homosexual again, and are completely heterosexual now ... At any rate, it is /definately/ NOT a sickness ... Just a choice that is made ... It is mostly a moral value.. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: JONBOY Subject: Reality Date & Time: 08/02/90 12:14:39 Message Number 7114 When I have more time I would like to discuss this philosophy further wi th you further. I am on the trach for people who would like to go to the Apple Club meeting. I am on the track of people who would like to go to the Apple Club meeting tonight at Sarasota Votech. =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: %&xx Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/02/90 19:03:49 Message Number 7117 I shan't even reply to that...how many people do you know that have willingly submitted to incest? That's what I thought. The Lady =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: JONBOY Subject: Ziggy Date & Time: 08/02/90 19:06:49 Message Number 7118 You're on! My 'puter had a few motherboard fries, yes indeed, but it's all better now...It's sad to see what's become of vinyl these days...I remember when it was "the thing".... The lady =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: JONBOY Subject: ...Earth Callin Date & Time: 08/02/90 19:08:22 Message Number 7119 Gee, do I get to call you *babe* too? :> The Lady =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: JONBOY Subject: Earth? Date & Time: 08/02/90 19:09:16 Message Number 7120 I have an AT, too...now you can't bitch about IBM's at me any more....I really love my 'puter. Hmm...single life...sucks...Rob is leaving to- morrow for the Bahamas....3 weeks alone...yick@ .e =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: TURTLE Subject: Earth. Date & Time: 08/02/90 19:13:07 Message Number 7121 Yeah, actually they have rights...not as many as they should, but they have rights...I'll get you later... The Lady =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: AJ-- Subject: Rights? Date & Time: 08/02/90 19:15:30 Message Number 7122 You obviously don't know me, then...of course they should have rights... and a lot more than they do....I am a very vocal person as far as gay rights are concerned...I'm involved in SAS...Sarasota Aids Support, and a few other organizations...AIDS is a scary disease, and you take it ver y seriously when it hits home...my cousin died of AIDS almost two years ago. I never laugh when someone mentions a gay joke...they aren't funny at all...you have to lack a sense of humor to laugh at the dead, and at people who have feelings... The Lady .s =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: YNGLING Subject: Earth? Date & Time: 08/02/90 19:20:26 Message Number 7123 I ask! I ask! How are you, dearest one? The Lady =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: Heart? Date & Time: 08/02/90 19:32:23 Message Number 7124 L>Answer me this: L> What exactly is normal? L> The Lady L> Anything which is not abnormal. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/02/90 19:34:54 Message Number 7125 Oh, don't harrangue me with your tirades. I never said that homo's don't have any right to screw those of thier own sex. And yes, every one has a right to thier privacy. I never said that they didn't, for that matter. I simply said that homos are sick. That is not a criticism (as everybody on this board thinks it is), it is simply an observation. "SICK-SICK-SICK-SICK-" Snakebyte, aLTER rEALITY =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Truth Date & Time: 08/02/90 19:54:00 Message Number 7126 T>I'd still say that the fact that a belief is popular...[inspires] T>fanaticism...or long lived doesn't necessarily have any bearing on its T>validity. Ah, a beautiful stroke of logic! =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: AJ-- Subject: Christian? HAH! Date & Time: 08/02/90 19:59:57 Message Number 7127 AJ>...I no longer lead the "life" of what would be considered "a noble AJ>christian" HAH! I guess not! AJ>I still believe in the one Almighty. Then I guess you believe in the rest of the kit&kaboodle, too, dontcha? Do you have any idea what the bible says about sodomy? Sodomizers make me sick. I can't explain how sick that makes me...the contradiction between a sodomizer who believes in the "one Almighty". Do you understand at all what I'm getting at? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: AJ-- Subject: Homosexuals Date & Time: 08/02/90 20:05:31 Message Number 7128 AJ> I prefer to think of "homosexuality" an alternative, rather than use AJ>your termination of "not normal", who is dictating what is Normal AJ>or not?....We could say Christianity is not normal in our society AJ>today......but who am I to define normal> Here, for everyone to see, is an example of a sick mind trying to justify itself and it's actions. Note the comparison of homoperversity to Christianity for the sake of proving homoperversity normal. Also, the question of who dictates what is normal proves that htis mind is not aware of what is normal. The typical gay cannot be blamed for being homosexual...it is sad, however, that they have to be this way. =========== From: JONBOY To: ANGEL Subject: definition Date & Time: 08/02/90 21:15:07 Message Number 7129 I forget now what exactly prompted the remark except that it indeed appeared that your temper was somewhat "short". Perhaps a better word would have been not nasty but rather "irritated". Of course you are entitled to express an opinion without being castigated or referred to in less than complementary terms. Please forgive me for tromping on still-tender feelings. Also I'm sorry that I have com across in such a vague manner. Sometimes in the "heat" of the post I get redundant and thus unclear. I am holdin a book titled "What the Cults Believe" which is aguide to these groups. It gives the Websters definition and notes that sect is a synonym for cult. It is rather loosely organized around the principle that the group to be considered a cult have beliefs outside the established norm for mainstream religious organizations. Yes there ARE sects that are considered mainstream and in fact have issued many joint proclomations as articles of faith binding them in the greater concept of the ministry of Christ. I read somewhere that the various groups (Baptists, Episcopl Presbyterian etc etc) in fact agree on the "most important" 85% of dogma - I would presume - but not guarantee - that this is stuff like observance of the Lord's Supper, He died for our sins on the cross, He was the Son of God, He was God Incarnate (trilogy) etc etc. If your church recognizes some of these cults then I would defer to their and your priveledge to do so and would only hope that the superficial nod to the Bible would not varnish over major flaws in theology. Mormons as a case in point tromp all over themselves in contradictions within the Book of Mormon. As a matter of fact a couple of ex-mormons that run an organization that ministers to mormons have counted over 3,600 alterations, changes and omissions in this "divinely inspired and translated work" since its' first printing. The theology that they preach is superficially Christian and it is only under closser scrutiny that they are exposed. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Reality Date & Time: 08/02/90 21:32:07 Message Number 7130 Not true - it helps to bounce ideas off a willing mental wall and see how it comes back. Empiricism at its' best. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Guitars Date & Time: 08/02/90 21:33:12 Message Number 7131 I wanna bowed psaltry *so* bad - I just never seem to have the approx $150 when the medieval festival comes around.. Sigh... =========== From: JONBOY To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: Ziggy Date & Time: 08/02/90 21:36:04 Message Number 7132 When I lived in Germany I started working in the cafeteria at Rhein Maine airbase at the tender age of 14. I made $150 every two weeks and had a really nice stereo in a couple of months. For the next 2 years every two weeks I would go to a place called BuchSchalg where there was a complete music store (nothing but LP's as cassettes were not reliable) I spend no less than $60 on LP's at $2 each! You figure how many albumns I used to have. We were overweight when we left so I had to pay for about 350 lbs extra for my LP's - I had easy close to 1000. I got careless in my later teenage years and loaned without remembering - got toasted at parties and forgot now I have very few of these albumns to remind me *snif*.... My own damned fault. When I finally woke up - I started listening to the LP's once to make sure they were OK and then taping them and listening to the tape. I still have most of them except the ones my ex got brain dead over... I just picked up Bowie - "Changes" it's pretty good. I gotta start replentisghing my Floyd with CD's now that they're out. I wish there was a way to capture one of their concerts. I saw a show in Germany where they performed in a castle and dumped 40 tons of dry ice into the moat - WOW! They are pretty lucky over there as they play old taped concerts all the time on TV. Ah well - fond memories. As far as getting together you'll have to let me know when is good for you - I left private mail - read it... =========== From: JONBOY To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: ...Earth Callin Date & Time: 08/02/90 21:46:32 Message Number 7133 Sure! Several of the gals at work do. I hope it wasn't percieved as sexist or anything. =========== From: ANGEL To: JONBOY Subject: definition Date & Time: 08/02/90 22:24:52 Message Number 7134 Thank you for the clarifications; ambiguities in a serious discussion drive me batty. > If your church recognizes some of these cults then I would defer... It's not a matter of "recognition". There's no "approved" list of proper and acceptable religions circulating among the Episcopal hierarchy. Part of the "Articles of Faith" recognizes and accepts diversity in beliefs and forms of worship. You made the assumption that since I said we don't view them as cults, that we give the Goodhousekeeping stamp of approval. The truth (of our belief) lies in the middle ... we simply view other faiths as different from our own. As my rector once summed it up, "Fine, they'll get to heaven their way and I'll get to heaven mine." We've been bandying theologies around quite a bit, but I've missed you mentioning what church you belong to. (I came into this string late and might have missed it.) You've got me curious, which denomination do you adhere to? =========== From: ANGEL To: *.* Subject: changes Date & Time: 08/02/90 22:40:23 Message Number 7135 Hmmm, so Wezip was having male visitors. Good. Glancing down at the shoulder, she was glad to see the wound had repaired itself. Now, if she could only find clothing that would do the same. She stared curiously at Rufus, or rather, at the remaining portions of Rufus' shoulder. Strange that he was still standing in such a condition. Also, strange ... the Giant and the polar bear were strangly silent during all the tumult. Where had they disappeared to? "So, Wezip, when do we get to meet your friends? Will you be bringing them by the Pub? And, by the way, what's become of Donthen? I'm surprised he hasn't come to check on the latest damage to his establishment. Of course, from the little I've seen of this charming place, this must be a rather quiet business day. Well, let's see if I can raise a little more noise." She went to the piano and with just minor difficulty opened the sliding panel to get at the player roll. She discarded the singed and wet roll. Loading another, she set it playing. About every fourth note played, and roughly half of those were twangy and off-key. "Bloody 'ell." =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Truth Date & Time: 08/02/90 23:19:34 Message Number 7136 T>"Once I believe with all my heart thent he mysteries of [the Bible T>and] Christianity go away because I no longer have to think about T>them rationally. Pity the poor people who haven't seen the light T>yet and still think rationally about this stuff." Oh, I cannot tell you how BEAUTIFULLY you expressed that! Oh, man, that is my thinking and the way I have been trying to express it for a LONG, Long time! Oh, man...that was great! =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/02/90 23:39:49 Message Number 7137 JB>The homosexual realizes his/her predisposition and if they are JB>mentally healthy STOP! right there. That they accept the "predisposition" is not the part that is mentally abberant. I am shallow, and neurotic, and occasionally paranoid. I accept that. The fact that I accept it is not the abnormal part...obviously! The part about being shallow, neurotic & paranoid is what is abberant. The The "predisposition" is what is abberant in a homosexual. JB>...hardly a disease thatn can be treated with chicken soup. Yes, what a shame. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/02/90 23:45:24 Message Number 7138 JB>That particular quote was simply to shock us liberal adults Well, aren't WE just so superior. The quote, in its reverse form can also apply. And I don't use it for the shock value...don't flatter yourself by thinking I put it there just for you "liberal adults". As for "rednek amerika", I would bet $1000 that I could take a poll of just about any average neighborhood and there would be more people anti than pro to homosexuality, men OR women. You had better wise up, becaus because "popular opinion" has spoken. Homosexuality in any form is perverse and abnormal. Anyone care to take my bet? Put your money where your mouth is... I could use $100 to buy a new Sixpack for my 440 Mopar. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 08/02/90 23:52:25 Message Number 7139 JB>...about 70% of...males have a homosexual encounter of /some/ kind JB>by the time they are 18 years old? Wasn't yours good? I should be offended by your bait. If you want to accuse me of homosexuality, why don't you just out and do it? That was really a cheap shot. I can't tell you how (pissed) dissapointed I am (at) with you. No, I guess that I was among the 30% who just "missed out" but don't let me discourage you from relating your own experience. Hmmm...70%, huh? That must be the reason why all the guys here are so defensive of homoperversity. THEY"VE ALL DONE IT AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER. IT FOLLOWS! (tm) LOGICALLY! (tm) =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: Guitars Date & Time: 08/02/90 23:58:59 Message Number 7140 Wups...I don't know if you still wanna have tacos after my last post... but I really dig (lack of a more expressive word) Dan Fogleburgs stuff. And I think that it's great too, that we can get all pissed off over some unimportant gay issue and still talk music. Dianne, eh? She single? Young? Blonde? Buxom? Eh, forget it... she wouldn't give me a second glance...course, I could always leave a big tip on the bar.... =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: JOB Date & Time: 08/03/90 00:02:40 Message Number 7141 I do a lot of breadboarding of new circuits...I looked into buying Orcad PCB and ohmygod...$1500 and up. I was really looking forward to making my own boards, but the autorouter alone was $250! And got more expensve for rip-up and re-router which could complete 100% of the time. I have Orcad (the first one) and soon to have a plotter (HP-7274 equiv) as soon as I can find the Orcad driver for it. What do you use "off the shelf"? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: BEATLE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/03/90 00:07:41 Message Number 7142 B>By the logic I think you are following, sex is strictly for re- B>production of the species. Following that idea, any sexthat [sic] B>does not produce offspring can be equated with homosexuality. No. Homosexuality is a definition unto itself. Any sex that does not result in sexual reproduction can be equated with sodomy. Which, no, I don't approve of sodomy, either...but that's another debate. B>This still leave the idea of the "sickness" unproved. I thing you mean, "unproven". And no, it doesn't. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: BEATLE Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/03/90 00:12:00 Message Number 7143 B>No, the fact that something is done different than intended doesn't B>indicate a sickness. It does where sexual relations are concerned. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: BEATLE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/03/90 00:14:11 Message Number 7144 B>Just because someone exhibits an odd behavior doesn't mean they're B>sick. No? The the people who wander the streets of New York who talk to themselves are actually fine, upstanding SANE people? And by your premise, all the people who are in Arcadia should be released...why, they're HEALTHY individuals! I think that I have discovered why you think the way you do. With a base like that to go on, you could explain ANYTHING abnormal or sick as just an "odd behavior". If your attitude is typical, I should not have bothered to bring this subject up. With that attitude, you could dismiss anything I say, so I will no longer discuss it with you... =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/03/90 00:23:58 Message Number 7145 T>What's yer point? Go back and re-read...then ask me again. But read the thread. I can only repeat what I said to make my point. I agree. Bigotry is immoral. I never claimed to be perfectly moral. You cannot blame a black man for being black, any more than you can blame a white for being white. You can blame a white for stealing, or any other crime. That would not be bigotry. You cannot blame a man for being homosexual...unless he chose to be. Most of the time, they are stuck with it somehow. It isn't a crime, true, to be homosexual. (Unless you're me, of course.) It is, however, in direct contradiction to the way things were meant to operate, and therefore, abnormal. Ok, I'll admit it. I don't like gays. Why they do what they do is irrelavant to me, the fact that they do it is what really bothers me. They do it, it bothers me...OPINION. They do it and can't help thier "predisposition"...FACT. They do it in direct contradiction to what is natural...ABNORMAL. (FACT) =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/03/90 00:37:32 Message Number 7146 T>That explains your reasons for finding the behavior itself unappealing T> No, not unappealing. Disgusting. Abberative. Abnormal. T>Yes, I think the eggplant metaphor T> Not a metaphor, Mr. Grammar...it's an analogy. And a totally inaccurate one, at that. Eggplant was meant to be eaten. To eat eggplant is not an unnatural act. It is digestable (unlike semen). T>You seem to behave as if /all/ homosexuals are stereotypes, they T>all have the same characteristics, etc, etc. They all engage in homosexual activity. This is enough for me. Acting brutish (for women) or swishy (for men)...to what percentage do YOU think this applies? Or other minor traits...like a high, womanish (for men) or gravely (for women) type voice...tell me that you don't see this more often than not. I won't ask for proof. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/03/90 00:45:56 Message Number 7147 T>I can't speak for Beatle, T> Good. Shut up and but out. T>But my mother taught me respect for others, toleration, and a T>fierce belief in the individual liberties of other people. T> Good. I'm glad you told me that. THAT explains why you are so tolerant of gays and other perverse behaviors. So, in the same line of reasoning that I discovered with Beatle, you can dismiss anything by simply "tolerating" that type of behavior. Boy, you two are a pair. T>That was an easy question. Next! So why don't you tolerate criminal sexual-pyschopaths, too? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: BIG LEW Subject: ANDREW Date & Time: 08/03/90 00:53:36 Message Number 7148 BLU>I am curious as to your opinion of Andrew Clay? I think he is extremely vulgar and rarely funny. I think his own self-opinion...lets just say he's probably his biggest fan. I must however agree with his views on homoperversity. Sometime I will quote him in the full context on what he says on Ambi-sexuals... something like: "So, whadda they do, wake up in the moring and flip a coin? Whatdo I wanna be doday...tails, up the pipe, heads...BALLS ACROSS THE NOSE!" ("OH!") -Andew "Dice" Clay... =========== From: TURTLE To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: Earth. Date & Time: 08/03/90 01:40:32 Message Number 7149 >...I'll get you later... I bet you will. So when are you going to make me that custard, anyway?? OH--Before I forget--the deadline for Mythagoras #3 is currently Septem- ber first, which isn't all that far away, so I'll try to make a point to get #1 and #2 to you ASAP. =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Guitars Date & Time: 08/03/90 02:01:32 Message Number 7151 Yes, but an *electric* bowed psaltry?? =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Truth Date & Time: 08/03/90 02:04:21 Message Number 7152 >Oh man...that was great! Really? Well, uh, thanks for the vote of confidence, I guess... =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/03/90 02:05:17 Message Number 7153 >The "predisposition" is what is aberrant in a homosexual. Do you also make the same claim about oral sex; that is, since nature obviously didn't intend for the organs involved to be involved in that sort of activity, then the people who do it must be sick? If you /do/, then it's quite curious to me that you aren't as busy vigorusly condemning people who engage in oral sex as "sick," "deviant," and "not normal." On the other hand, if you /don't/ believe oral sex is sick, then I'd suspect your condemnation of homosexuality on the grounds of nature is more of a rationalization than a reason for your beliefs. =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/03/90 02:10:00 Message Number 7154 >Any sex that does not result in sexual reprduction can be equated with >sodomy. A minor semantic quibble here, rather than a conceptual one (aren't you lucky?) The definition for sodomy is pretty narrow; you can't really equate acts which fall outside that definition to sodomy. Also, I don't think you phrased that the way you intended; from the sound of things, it would seem that you'd equate sex with contraceptives to sodomy, and I don't think that's the claim you're making. =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/03/90 02:12:44 Message Number 7155 Another semantic quibble: Beatle's statement that not all abnormal behavior can be considered sick does not imply that /no/ abnormal behavior can be considered sick. It simply means that the fact that the behavior is uncommon is, by itself, insufficient to prove that an illness exists. Hey, staying up 'til one AM BBSing isn't normal behavior, but it also isn't sign of sickness... =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Real analogs Date & Time: 08/03/90 02:16:09 Message Number 7156 >Eggplant was ment to be eaten. Not if you ask the eggplant. >Semen...[is] not digestable. Not true. I certainly wouldn't care to make it part of my diet, but it most certainly can be digested without undue difficulty. Of the people I know who are gay, which may or may not be a represen- tative sample, I would say they do /not/ meet the "swishy" or "mean bitch" stereotypes much more often than they do. However, most of the people I've met who are gay are college students from generally white middle-class families, so, as I said, they may or may not be representational of the so-called "gay community" as a whole. This is exactly my point, though; gays are /people,/ and this naturally means that they come in all shapes, sizes, attitudes, outlooks, beliefs, etc, etc. Therefore, judging anybody on the basis of a stereotype is at best risky and at worst does them--and you--a grave injustice. =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/03/90 02:21:52 Message Number 7157 >Shut up and but out. "Butt out." >Boy, you two are a pair. Yeah--throw in Watts and we're three of a kind, you need an inside straight or better to beat us. >So why don't you tolerate sexual-psychopathic behavior? I generally consider myself openminded. I am perfectly willing to accept the fact that people have opinions, views, and behavior which I don't agree with. That does not mean I have no objections to people who abuse other people, people who abuse animals, or people who interfere with the well-being of others or myself. If being open- minded and tolerant of others is a vice, well, I'm sorry, but there it is. Then again, if I were /not/ tolerant of other people's views, I almost certainly would have stopped speaking to you or associating with you by now. =========== From: AJ-- To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: Rights? Date & Time: 08/03/90 11:45:24 Message Number 7158 I too volunteer at SAS...Maybe I already know you..I understand where you are comming from. TopGun Strikes Again..... Sysop Of ALTnet BBS =========== From: AJ-- To: BIG LEW Subject: Gerbiling Date & Time: 08/03/90 11:48:58 Message Number 7159 YUCK!, I have heard that it is a REAL practice..I am not like that and I think that its sick....Glad I dont do THAT! TopGun Strikes Again..... Sysop Of ALTnet BBS =========== From: AJ-- To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Normal Date & Time: 08/03/90 11:51:00 Message Number 7160 Whatever...its people like you who have closed minds and live in the Dark Ages....thats fine , if thats what floats your boat. TopGun Strikes Again..... Sysop Of ALTnet BBS =========== From: AJ-- To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Christian? HAH! Date & Time: 08/03/90 11:52:40 Message Number 7161 It seems that I need not WASTE my energy on you anymore, no reason to try to help you "understand" that all gays are NOT! as you think... People like you who are closed and center minded and think THEY are ALWAYS right...Make me sick...you know what I am getting at? TopGun Strikes Again..... Sysop Of ALTnet BBS =========== From: ETC... To: TURTLE Subject: Applause Date & Time: 08/03/90 12:23:19 Message Number 7162 Why thank you... Charles Dickens thought so too... =========== From: XTEVE To: RAVEN Subject: sumbody hep'me Date & Time: 08/03/90 13:07:25 Message Number 7164 Hody Raven (or anybody else who is kind enough to respond.) My new DOS 3.3 seems to be having trouble with my B: drive... First of all It cant comprehend my driveparm "=/d:1 /c /f:2 /h:2 /s:9 /t:80" This is supposed to tell Dos that theres a 3 1/2 inch 720k drive in b: right? Give me a call on voice line sometime 351-spam (or e-mail). Thanks, Xteve P.S.: Lets try that NEC V20 mirrors thang, huh raven? =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: MAX Subject: relationships Date & Time: 08/03/90 13:34:45 Message Number 7165 Max if you learn that your best buddy is a murder that has seved his time and been freed from prison or that your best friend is after money for gambling debts do you forsake him/her. I found out about ... by putting in an inquirry. I found out about ... He doesn't know I know Am I to ruin a lagitimate friendship by someone who needs help or am I t o carry on as usual until he brings up the topic then say good by. It has been five years and ... has not once brought up the topic I feel safe around him. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: TURTLE Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 08/03/90 13:44:21 Message Number 7166 Was talking to my minister today about the origins of eating fish on Friday. Wow if the Catholics only knew that they were eating the fifteen part of an Egyption god. This man killed his father. The dad was cut up into fifteen pieces. The man's mother got all but one piece of the husband and put them back together. The fifteen piece was cast into the sea where a fish ate it. We eat fish which is off spring of that fish that ate the fifteen piece. Yuck .s =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: TURTLE Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 08/03/90 13:53:37 Message Number 7167 Wrong. The perfect forms are the basis of the faith. Ask your Church twice a week on Tuesdays and Thursdays and a requirred set of courses have more or less turned religion off. I hope that this answers your question. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: JONBOY Subject: Reality Date & Time: 08/03/90 14:05:56 Message Number 7168 Jonboy whast is a chair? This is what my pho\ilosophy teacher asked our graduate class at USF. I tried several definitions and each time the proff drew a pix on the board of two objects both filled the definition. So what is reality? Are you reality with your reference to a toilet for a name or am I reality with the referenceof a piece of carbon with electricity going through it for a name? =========== From: BEATLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/03/90 15:44:48 Message Number 7169 > Anyone care to take my bet? Hey, I would bet you are right. It is unfortunate but true. Most people, however, who would be against homosexualit probably have never met a homosexual. =========== From: BEATLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 08/03/90 15:47:12 Message Number 7170 > THEY'VE ALL DONE IT AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER. Ha! And you talk about cheap shots. > IT FOLLOWS! (tm) [yours?] LOGICALLY! (tm) [again, yours?] Again, NO! Sounds like a load of manifest bullshit to me (tm by someone)... =========== From: BEATLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/03/90 15:50:19 Message Number 7171 >> ...leaves the idea of the "sickness" unproved. > ...no, it doesn't. I don't see how you can equate a "sickness" with something that doesn't happen with the majority. According to you, since homosexual sex doesn't remotely follow the order of "nature" (which, I am assuming, is a man and woman producing offspring) doesn't mean it's a "sickness". Let's look at it a few ways. Let's say it's not a sickness. What's the problem? I know you don't agree, but... Now, (listen up) let's say it IS a sickness. What other things in the world are sicknesses. Oh, mental illness, alcoholism, and things along t those lines. Those things don't make people less a part of society, and it doesn't call for discrimination.. Now that I've assumed your argument, where does the issue stand? =========== From: BEATLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/03/90 15:55:52 Message Number 7172 >> The fact that something is done different than intended doesn't >> indicate a sickness. > It does where sexual relationships are concerned. WHY?! Back that up. I'd really like to know why. I seem to think the most logical idea I've heard is the one posted by Ken Ober, quoted by Mike Hickmon.How you look at homosexuality and sexual preference at the time you get an urge determines whether or not you take on that preference. Let me (again) compare homosexuality with other sicknesses that affect social interaction. If someone has a mental illness, they are somewhat impared for the rest of their life, but treatment helps. Alcoholics are alcoholics for the rest of their life. How they drink determines the symptoms. Yet, it has been shown that homosexuality has been discarded in favor of heterosexuality in the past... without and ...ANYTHING abnormal or sick is just an "odd behavior". No, you aren't understanding everything I said. I said not EVERYTHING can be grouped that way. YOUR examples were such where someone sticks their finger in their nose or butt in public. If someone sticks their finger in their nose, that does not indicate to me a sickness. Someone sticking their finger in their butt indicates something different. Unfortunately, you did not give an example (until now) such as people walking the streets of New York talking to themselves. =========== From: BEATLE To: TURTLE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/03/90 16:10:53 Message Number 7174 > It simply means that the fact that the behavior is uncommon is, by > itself, insufficient to prove that an illness exists... Thank you, Turtle. Glad to see that it wasn't my words that were the cause for The Specialist's interpretation. You PERFECTLY understood what I meant. =========== From: BEATLE To: TURTLE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/03/90 16:15:00 Message Number 7175 > ...throw in Watts and we're three of a kind. You need... I like that metaphor. Excelent, and sort of representative of the a argument. =========== From: SAM To: -*- Subject: -*- Date & Time: 08/03/90 16:32:51 Message Number 7176 "Nice music, Angel. Did you write it yourself?" Sam looks at the piano with an amused expression. More soberly, she turns her attention to Rufus and the redshirt harrassing him. The moronic turtle was babbling something about smuggling weapons. Like /he/ really knew what he was talking about...yeah, right. The grunter turned to say something to Turtle; Sam took advantage of the opportunity to slide up to Rufus. "You OK?" she asks quietly. "Damn, these IBM guys really want you bad. I wonder how they found you." The grunter turns his attention back toward Rufus and asks something about a something index. Sam sneers at him, and says "What's it to ya? Don't you have criminals to be flogging or something?" The turtle makes a strangled noise. "Shut up," she tells him. =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: TURTLE Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 08/03/90 18:57:05 Message Number 7177 Madonna is blond...Pink Floyd isn't...Mtv's got a thing for blondes, didn't you know that? I'm ashamed of you! MMtv is willing to play all trash music, but the good stuff...well, they tease you with it by only playing it for a second or two.... The Lady =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: RUFUS Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 08/03/90 19:00:30 Message Number 7178 Ghods I hate it when you make me laugh! Now Rufus, love, you promised you'd stop doing this to me! :> The Lady (Lacey to you...) =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: aristotle Date & Time: 08/03/90 19:01:29 Message Number 7179 Another NS? =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/03/90 19:03:54 Message Number 7180 Who left you in charge of morality? Last time I checked, morality didn't belong to those who impose judgement upon others....it bugs me when people like yourself put down homosexuals...you've no right, or logical reason to do so...rember, AIDS isn't just a homosexuals disease...whens the last time your life was threatened? Was it because of your sexual preference? You have NO right...it's people that breed hatred, and hatred sucks...learn to accept people for who they are... don't try and change them or put them down...if you don't like them... simple...STAY AWAY! The LAdy =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: TURTLE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/03/90 19:13:35 Message Number 7181 Not all of reality can be altered. I see no reason for people to hate homosexuals...they have not inflicted pain upon you, why do do to them? This should really be addressed to all the assholes on the board. I hate the way you look at a homosexual and want to destroy him. You wonder why we're all so fucked up? Ever stop and look at yourselves? I learned one thing in my short life...stop being so hateful, and start accepting...trust me, it makes life a bit more pleasant. accepting...trust me...it makes life a nit more pleasant. =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Heart? Date & Time: 08/03/90 19:20:49 Message Number 7182 In fact, you did not answer my question...what is abnormal? The Lady ( a smartass at that, too) =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/03/90 19:21:52 Message Number 7183 Your post does not deserve a response...it's a waste of valuable breath. The lady =========== From: RUFUS To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 08/03/90 20:38:57 Message Number 7184 >Now Rufus, love, you promised you'd stop doing this to me! Ghods, I can't do /anything/ right, can I? ...Females, I just don't grok them! But at least your cute... =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: AJ-- Subject: Association Date & Time: 08/03/90 21:29:09 Message Number 7186 If my previous message implied that homosexuals were the ones that were responsible for the majority of incest, sexual child abuse, animal cruelty (in a sexual manner)...etc. I did not intend that at all. In fact my point was meant to be that ALL of these (including homosexuality) are SEXUAL PREFERENCES...NOT 'sicknesses'. My point was to be that I disagree with the morality of THESE sexual preferences (including homosexuality). No, I don't think that a sexual preference IS a sickness. But you could not say that incest was a sickness and NOT just a sexual preference. Do YOU feel that child sexual abuse, incest, beastiality, sexual S&M or any of these things are 'sicknesses', or to you are they ALL regular choosen SEXUAL PREFERENCES??????????? =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: AJ-- Subject: Not-Normal??? Date & Time: 08/03/90 21:35:28 Message Number 7187 >Who is to deictate or define "normal"?? You don't know???? Why you, me, them, us, I, we, they, and anyone. Are you now stating that everyone plays by the same rules??? Should everyone have the same definition of "normal"??? I have MY opinions, views and beleifs....I gage them by MY rules and definitions. "Socially acceptable" is bullshit!!! And "Homophopbic" is a term that has been recently used to allow homosexuals to LABEL all those who don't agree or accept them as being SICK while standing back and saying "I'm not sick, it's just a SEXUAL PREFERENCE. But YOU'RE homophobic, that makes you SICK". I have yet to label homosexuals as "sick", but using homophobic, you're now labelling "straight" people as being "sick". =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: RAVEN Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/03/90 21:44:03 Message Number 7188 >perverse.... A rather "mild" term for that fad if you ask me. It would be about as normal as my ex-junkie friends who would place micro-dot acid under thier eyelids, hit a needle of cold water, then hit up junk and puke thier guts out, turn around and say "Man, this is great...". BTW Ex- because three of the four in question O.D.ed.....rip =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: RAVEN Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/03/90 21:47:28 Message Number 7189 >monogamy is not the general norm. At least you referred to monogamy as 'normal'. As far as the 'general norm' goes, I hope the populus doesn't decide that eating children's genitals for breakfast is okie-dokie....I'd disagree with that, too. Not to be anti-social, but I base MY opinion on MY values......I hope you base yours on your values, too. Everyone should. =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: MAX Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/03/90 21:52:26 Message Number 7190 I have yet to make a claim that 'homosexuals' are perverse or sick. If I have implied such, it was by mistake. I have been mearly trying to state that if homosexuality is a sexual preference and ONLY that, well so is all the other things. What makes (as YOU stated) shoving a mouse in a body cavity a sickness and NOT a sexual preference? Let's leave out the fact that it involves taking advantage of a mouse, lab's and high schools all over the country do that daily and you're not screaming that THEY'RE ALL SICK. Put the actions only to the extent that someone REALLY wants to do it and they haven't (therefore they haven't taken advantage of anyone or hurt anyone), are they sick still?? I'm loosing your fine line between sickness and preference, at least with the example of the white mice. Please explain why that is sick and a high school kid hacking up a frog in lab (and I mean HACKING up) is not....... =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: MAX Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/03/90 22:01:07 Message Number 7191 Sorry for the sincerity, the prejudice angainst yourself comment was meant to be a joke. (It was told to me many years ago). I am far from not judging others, I am also far from HATING anyone for their views, values and opinions. I just enjoy dragging opions through the mud (such as mine have had done), it makes people really solidify what they REALLY believe in, and it damn well helps me clear up what I believe in. By the way, I re-examine my thinking every day......do you? I got out of most ruts years ago.......... =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: TURTLE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/03/90 22:05:34 Message Number 7192 I never meant to imply that it was limited to homosexuals, only that there may be a fairly thin line (for most people) between what is perverse (sick...whatever) and what is (in their mind) 'normal'. You can't say that homosexuality is a preference and incest is a sickness without questioning why? It all boils down to YOUR own personal values and your definition of 'normal'. I am not meaning to condem (singly) homosexuals, but mainly the arguement on what determines a 'normal' sexual relationship and why is it normal? =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: TURTLE Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/03/90 22:11:45 Message Number 7193 Oooops, now we're going to decide at what age some can give informed sexual concent. What if a child abuser asked first? What if the child was 12 or 14? or maybe 16? or maybe 18 an un-informed? I am not disputing the fact that if someone is hurt, or taken advantage of it is WRONG,just arguing that what sexual preferences make someone sick rather then them making 'normal' decisions? =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: BEATLE Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/03/90 22:18:53 Message Number 7194 No joke....I think its' stirring up quite nicely. A good debate (argument, whatever....) usually makes each of us question (and hopefully in the long run) solidify our own beliefs. I have yet to call anyone 'sick', and even if I do, that (once again) is my opinion. WOW, what dictionary did you get that crap from? Hopefully not one I have around. I would be very intereseted in what THAT dictionary says about homosexuality.....check it out.....see ya' =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: BEATLE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/03/90 22:22:38 Message Number 7195 >prejudice.....whatever It was a joke that a co-worker laid on me several years ago, just passed it along (I guess) at the wrong time. I think you will find that discriminating people that discriminate would be shot to piece by the same arguement you gave for prejudice (no sub-groups....), just thought I'd point that out. =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/03/90 22:27:05 Message Number 7196 Don't be "warping back to the 40's". We'd miss you terribly (even though I'd like to see how we'd of turned out with you there ). I think you will find the direction of my topics to be to question each of our beliefs and values in the realm of normality and morality, I am not stating that anyone can't or shouldn't do something, just that "I" may not agree with it. Hey, I think that war, pollution, apathy and other things are far more important to "stop" then homosexuality (NOT implying that we should "stop" homosexuality). I think a good stewing of each of our value scales can solidify how we really feel about the world, .....and ourselves. Sorry if I'm stirring the pot too fast..... =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: yupper Date & Time: 08/03/90 22:34:27 Message Number 7197 Well, its' been damn hot lately. Checked out Clapton last friday, wow, talk about bringing back ol' memories. Great show. Excuse me, great music, Clapton ain't much show, just song. Getting a new system at work (Compaq 386-33/380Mb HD/modem/19" VGA/...etc,etc), hope I can pop in here at break and lunch (sometimes its rough getting in a/r). You've been fadin' in and out around for a few months, everything okay? What been jumpin' on your end of the baud highway???? sssssss <: =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: BIG LEW Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/03/90 22:39:18 Message Number 7198 >homosexuality is not normal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Be sure to explain to me (maybe us), that this is your OPINION and not FACT that we should base our lives on. Don't question me on this, when it was told to me my testicles crawled up around my heart somewhere (if ya know what I mean). In fact as far as this story (excuse me, report) goes, I'd more concerned what happened to the mouse. Hope he made it out okay...... =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: YNGLING Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/03/90 22:43:40 Message Number 7199 Heck maybe from "gerbaling" they'll move to "cating", then "doging", until they get up to "cattling" . This guy should deserve to be internally eaten by a mouse. Hope he tries it again. It didn't do my appitie much good when it was first told to me. It was similar (getting off the subject a little) to the feeling I experienced when I was at Wrightsville Beach and we heard a guy screaming at a fishing peir. By the time we got there he was being carted off be some friends. Turns out he had been jumping off the pier to surf. The water was cold so he had a wetsuit top with the beaver-tail between the legs, no support/suit. When he jumped off (about a 30' drop) his private parts hung out of his beaver tail and when he hit the water the impact popped his testicles right out of his scrotum..... When I tell that, it still takes my breath away..... =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: JONBOY Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/03/90 22:51:14 Message Number 7200 >kosher to use...... Sly comment. Pickles, snakes, pool cues, bottles, whatever....the seeking of pleasure runs some people off the edge. You may be right on the validity of the tale, it was third hand (my department's secretary's brother). Maybe the rubber container for the mouse (baloon, whatever) was rolled in coke...don't know. =========== From: BIG LEW To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/03/90 23:04:11 Message Number 7201 ANTI =========== From: BIG LEW To: AJ-- Subject: WAS "gerbiling" Date & Time: 08/03/90 23:11:59 Message Number 7202 Glad to hear it.........Also, where is ALTnet BBS? Number? =========== From: TURTLE To: XTEVE Subject: sumbody hep'me Date & Time: 08/04/90 00:54:09 Message Number 7203 To use a 3.5" disk under Mush 3.3, you have to have a system program called INDISK.SYS or something like that, and put a line on your configuration file that says "DEVICE=INDISK.SYS" or whatever the hell it's called. /Then/ it'll work. I have the Mush 3.3 version of the 3.5" disk driver kicking around here somewhere; I may even have it on a Mush-formatted disk. If you want a copy, let me know. =========== From: TURTLE To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: Stuff Date & Time: 08/04/90 00:56:44 Message Number 7204 >Am I to ruin a lagitimate [sic] friendship by someone who needs help >or am I to carry on as usual until he brings up the topic then >say good by. Neither one. If it's really a legitimate friendship, then either you have loyalty to your friends or you don't; if it's the former, you wouldn't even be asking the question, I think, and if it's the latter then it doesn't really matter, now, does it? Are your friendships always conditional on not finding out anything about your friend that you don't like? =========== From: TURTLE To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Association Date & Time: 08/04/90 01:06:24 Message Number 7205 >Do YOU feel that child sexual abuse, incest, bestiality, sexual >S&M or any of these things are 'sicknesses'... Violent, antisocial behavior is violent, antisocial behavior regardless of its sexual content. Child sexual abuse is a sickness in exactly the same way that child abuse is a sickness; it's a pathological violent condition. Whether or not you'd call any form of child abuse a sickness depends on how you look at it, I guess--most child molestors say they can't help themselves, ditto with child abusers--but there is no intrinsic difference between sexual and non-sexual forms of child abuse. Same thing for animal abuse, be it sexual or non-sexual. Rape is an act of violence; so is murder. You don't often hear people wandering around saying murderers are "sick;" the mindset during an act of rape is essentially the same. You tell me. Would you say that a person who sexually abuses children is sick while a person who simply beats them is healthy? Is it just the sexual aspect that causes you to call it "sick?" A peculiar defi- nition of sickness, if that's the case. =========== From: TURTLE To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/04/90 01:15:53 Message Number 7206 Aha...I think we're on the same wavelength here. My point is that it's dangerous to label any single practice a "sickness" in one sweeping swoop, particularly something as general and widespread as homosexualiy ...you seem to be saying essentially the same thing. =========== From: BEATLE To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/04/90 11:29:30 Message Number 7207 > popped his testicles right out of his scrotum... OUCH!!!! is right...gheee. Wonder what happened afterwards. I have other questions, but I think they'd be in bad taste or be to strange. Not very important. Also, stick to the facts. When you mentioned jumping off a pier and rocks, uhh... let's just say I got a worse picture than you painted. =========== From: JONBOY To: ANGEL Subject: definition Date & Time: 08/04/90 12:11:26 Message Number 7208 I was raised Southern Baptist - since we travelled a lot when I was young and because my parents wisely desired me to comt to my own conclusions about the world, I attended many different services to see if any of them struck a resonant chord. The chord was struck in a very small town in North Dakota - a black guy kept pestering me as to what I believed. As I had no faith etched in concrete, I kept feeling like he was "picking" on me. Finally, exasperated, I asked him why he was bugging me so much. I'll never forget the warm feeling that I got when he said with a slow, spreading smile, "Why, because God told me that YOU are my project!". I finally was able to admit that I had many questions and feelings of ambiguity about my beliefs in God. He was able to show me that the various systems of beliefs are like different sets of clothes in that they might look different, be colored different, cost more or less but that the fundamental purpose remains the same. A slightly flawed analogy but it works on a simplistic level. What our talks really did for me was to cause me to be aware of what religion was all about. After many years of fitting together pieces that at first don't appear to be compatible - I have settled on a set of guidelines that I try to follow. I still attend Baptist Churches but am not shy to try out someone elses services. They all preach the Word of God and the internal alarm system is capable of flagging erroneous teachings. I stopped attending Oneco 1st Baptist for this reason and am now looking at Samoset Baptist. I don't agree with all that the Southern Baptists teach but they are so far, the closest to what I accept as the truth. =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Truth Date & Time: 08/04/90 12:32:35 Message Number 7209 Ah yes, it is an envious thing to have a way with the written word. Are you so blind or unconcerned that you would not look to what others have to say about it? They are no less eloquent and not a little persuasive. Or have you put on the blinders of self-deception? I would refer you to a statement by St. Thomas Aquinas wherin he states his "Five Ways" to prove the existance of God. Any decent college text on philosophy should have it. =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/04/90 12:38:59 Message Number 7210 You know - you get right to the edge of understanding and AUGGGHHHH! You run screaming from the edge. So you admit that it is a predis- position and not a "curable" disease. What is it about this series of facts that you have to respond with hatred, loathing and a total disregard of another human beings' feelings? >I am shallow, and neurotic, and these are hardly a good example - they are all something that you can change if you like or treated with the help of a counsellor. Homosexual feelings cannot be driven away or ignored as the acceptance of your fell fellow human beings is a primary need. Is it any wonder that the most desperate plea of these people is not necessarily an understanding, but merely an acceptance as a fellow human being with their own set of needs, desires, ambitions and dreams? JonBoy =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/04/90 12:48:02 Message Number 7211 Just for curiosity - why'd ya drop from $1000 to $100. Besides - I'd li like to know where you can find a six-pack fr that price! My buddy has a desire for one on his 'Cuda. If you really believ what you say then take me up on my gentleman's bet and do a survey on any and all BBS's. Give them the choice of Like - dislike - don't care. Sure the don't care may be a weasle's way out but also it is a valid choice. Some people could simply give a rat's fuzzy behind less whether someone is gay or not. SP>..wise up,because "popular opinion" has spoken. That is rather jumping the gun on your survey, don't you think? While you percieve me as hi-n-mighty I see you as arrogant and unwashed in your assertion that you speak for a "majority" that doesn't exist except in a bigoted dream that you had. =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 08/04/90 12:53:54 Message Number 7212 Glad ya hate cheap shots - I have a million of 'em that I store up for targets that are unworthy of real ammunition. In fact, I will relate my personal homosexual encounter. My friend in Junior High that lived across the street in Georgia approached me one day about if I was "experienced" yet. When I admitted that I was not he tried to persuade me that another man was as good and explained how it was almost a custom at certain British Boy's Schools (which is true BTW). I declined but we remained friends. Funny thing is - I don't think he was gay - just a real horny adolescent. As you will note, the definition of encounter does not obligate one to a homosexual experience. I would like to point out that while my "cheap shot" was directed at you, and you alone, /your/ parting shot included an awful lot of people on this board. Let's practise what we preach ok? =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Guitars Date & Time: 08/04/90 13:01:51 Message Number 7213 Sure! Tacos are always on the menu. I would be a class A hypocrite if I couldn't share a meal with someone that merely disagreed with me. I have eveything except the last two albumns of Dan Fogelberg. My favorite is the one he put out with Tim Weisberg (a jazz flautist) called "Twin Sons of Different Mothers". Dianne - young, brunette, sexy as hell, single, tantalizingly aloof but friendly. While the issue of homosexuality may be an exercise in debate for us, I would like for you to consider the fact that there are millions of people in the world that must live within this framework every day of their life. Is there ANY reason for someone that is blessed with a a socially accepted lifestyle to persecute and harrangue a fellow human being because they have a different lifestyle? The problem is in the same league as discrimination against Blacks. They are born the color that they are and do not deserve to be hounded to their grave for a genetic difference. =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: JOB Date & Time: 08/04/90 13:10:34 Message Number 7214 I use MetraByte signal conditioning cards for the thermistor, RTD and thermocouple signals. These are run into MetraByte A/D cards (DAS-8) and I use MetraByte PIO24's for 24 channels of I/O to turn stuff on/off and get digital signals. We also use Data Translation and all sorts of stuff by Allen Bradley, Omron and Cutler Hammer. Here's a hint: I use the transparency material especially for copiers and use the laser printer to print the PCB design for use in one-off printed circuits. Works good but you have to watch for breaks in the traces on the material and the exposure is critical. OrCAD PCB is an unfriendly beast that makes you wonder whether the same people wrote the damned thing or not. It HAS to have over 560K AVAILABL to do autorouting which means a very bare config.sys with only the mouse driver extra. Doesn't support any EMS or extended memory either. I guess I'm hinting that it's a piece of shit, except that it DOES layout a PCB pretty quick but I feel the optomization could be better. I like smoothly flowing lines and it likes stairstep stuff with some really bizarre bends. Oh well, better than without! =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Guitars Date & Time: 08/04/90 13:22:18 Message Number 7215 Why not? Jean Luc Ponty and Roy Harper play electrified fiddles. I have a spare pickup or two. Voila! ElectroBow Rock-n-roll psaltry! =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: OOps! Date & Time: 08/04/90 13:26:04 Message Number 7216 T>we're three of a kind, you need an inside straight or better to beat u Uhhhh, couldn't /he/ be considered a "straight" (in gay vernacular)? I get it! He's an /outside/ straight! =========== From: JONBOY To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: Reality Date & Time: 08/04/90 13:31:21 Message Number 7217 The concept of variety and a sharing in forms or "participating" in a form may be novel to you but is not very useful when applied to explaining reality. A much better variation that is closely realated wa was produced by a behavioralist names Piaget. He came up with the concept of "schemes" and uses his theory of schemes to explain the learning process in children and the ability of the brain to concep- tualize widely differing bits of information. Much more useful than a Platonian universe where pure forms converse with physical objects that borrow from these perfect forms. The simplest example I can give of where Platonian forms break down is the mechanism behind the transmutation of an object. How do forms explain autumn leaves turning? They already participate in the form of leaf with subclass Maple. (Gee sounds like OOPs in Smalltalk! - Imagine Plato the worlds first OOPs programmer!) but what is te mechanism for a burning log? It starts out borrowing from tree trunk and ends up with (dirt?) The mechanism of change is the weak link in the philosophy. =========== From: JONBOY To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/04/90 13:47:52 Message Number 7218 SB>fact that it involves taking advantage of a mouse, lab'sand high SB>schools all over the country do that daily SB>high school kid hacking up a frog in lab I have to agree with you if you are stating that using animals for the sake of convenience in a school is immoral. In fact there are many trying to banish the practise as cruel and barbaric. I barely squeeked by in High School because I refused to cut up my frog. It was pointed out that it "was already dead" my reply - "If I cut it up then I am a participant in the crime". With otherwise perfect grades I got a C- for the year. I used to try and find homes for the lab rats at the college after the psych students finished teaching them to run a maze. The old system gave them to a pet store but I investigated and discovered that they fed the helpless rats to rather large snakes. My personal rat was named Bubba Ignatz and was taught to run the maze without any form of torture being applied. =========== From: YNGLING To: TURTLE Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 08/04/90 16:17:34 Message Number 7219 The objection I have to hell is that my grass wont quit growing!!! Thats right...I'M IN HELL!!! I dont water it, I dont fertalize (sp?) it, I dont even talk to it..BUT IT KEEPS ON GROWING! Grass from hell...thats what it is......... The Yngling (from hell..) =========== From: YNGLING To: RUFUS Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 08/04/90 16:21:38 Message Number 7220 >Or Pink Floyd. ditto. The Yngling =========== From: YNGLING To: JONBOY Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/04/90 16:26:11 Message Number 7221 "Never underestimate the value of early training and proper breaking in." -Nicholas Proffitt Gardens of Stone =========== From: YNGLING To: JONBOY Subject: spam Date & Time: 08/04/90 16:28:10 Message Number 7222 Dont apologize Jon, it WAS funny. =========== From: YNGLING To: TURTLE Subject: $$$ Date & Time: 08/04/90 16:31:05 Message Number 7223 Well, he said security check...but even if he /meant/ credit check - those are usually easier than sec. checks but cost more than $35 unless you're set up to do a lot of them. The Yngling =========== From: YNGLING To: BEATLE Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 08/04/90 16:41:15 Message Number 7224 >Madonna sells more than Pink Floyd Yes, but will the platinum blond with platinum boobs be around for 24 years? I think (and hope) not. The Yngling =========== From: YNGLING To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: Earth? Date & Time: 08/04/90 16:51:51 Message Number 7226 Dear Lady, I have been enslaved by my lawn! Help! The Yngling =========== From: YNGLING To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Homosexuals Date & Time: 08/04/90 16:54:21 Message Number 7227 Specialist - Hey. Been a long time. I've kept out of this straights vs gays arguement but I had to jump in with some advice (un-asked for tho' it might be). I think its obvious that you are not going to change your mind concern- ing this issue and you're not going to change anyone else's opinion so why continue to kick a dead dog? Personally, I dont care if homosexuality is genetic or by preference or is the result of drinking City of Bradenton water...I am not a homosex- ual, do not care to associate with homosexuals, but do not get drunk and go "fag-bashing" either. I have known a few gay men in my time and I didnt like them /before/ I found out about their sexual preference, but it was certain aspects of their personalities which all three (a limited test group I'll admit) shared which I disliked which leads me to believe it may have been a result of the type of personality group which are homosexual or have homosexual tendencies. If I'm wrong - oh well. I may have friends who are gay & I dont know it ... but I doubt it. Anyway, it really doesnt matter /why/ someone is homosexual so why continue to argue about it? Debate is fine but after a while certain issues ( like abortion and homosexuality) are reduced to tedious, repetitive statements that begin to take on the flavor of "Oh yeah? So's yer mother!" Well, thats all I have to say. Glad to see you back on the boards. The Yngling =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Alarm bells Date & Time: 08/04/90 22:15:36 Message Number 7228 >...the internal alarm system is capable of flagging erroneous >teachings. Yeowch! That 'un set off /my/ internal alarms...do you really believe that you know God well enough to know instantly when you hear something contradictory to what He'd say in the same place, or does your internal alarm simply react to a statement that you either don't believe in or for some reason don't like? =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Guitars Date & Time: 08/04/90 22:26:57 Message Number 7229 Oooooookey....so, once you actually /have/ an electric bowed psaltry, what do you /do/ with it? (Me, I just want to see what it'd sound like...) =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Bwoing! Date & Time: 08/04/90 22:28:28 Message Number 7230 >I get it! He's an /outside/ straight! I'm happy the pun wasn't wasted... =========== From: TURTLE To: YNGLING Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 08/04/90 22:32:46 Message Number 7231 You're lucky that /all/ you have to deal with is grass from hell. Me, I have the car from hell, the neighbors from hell, the BBS software from hell...hell, I'm thinking about turning Hell into a subsidiary! =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: TURTLE Subject: Stuff Date & Time: 08/04/90 22:56:06 Message Number 7232 You opened up the door so now walk through it. Who is Turtle and why the name? I know the why for the name from your early morning wonderings but why? You see that I can lead you down the marry path also. This is nor NS but rather a test of your word. Sam is a topic that needs an answer also. Turtlwe get your head out of the shell and talk a little. Just do not use caps. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: JONBOY Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/04/90 23:05:51 Message Number 7233 I usually stay away from the topic you are discussing. I want to say tha your summary is beautiful. I like the way you changed the feelings that the Spoecialist expressed from negative to a way to grow. I am homophobic to an extent but your statement opened me up to a greate r understanding. I believe that I could really accept a gay lady/man and not feel astranged at this point.. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: JONBOY Subject: Reality Date & Time: 08/04/90 23:17:48 Message Number 7234 What is reality for you is not reality for another. I had a child steal a can of paint today at Sears. He explained that he took it because it was there in a big pile of paint. He had a need for it and my boss had plenty. He did not understand why the store was so upset. The child was about thirteen and he wanted the paint for his new bike. The child was from the islands where poperty is held in common. In his s if a woman is a good cook then she cooks for the whole clan. Taking the paint was ok to him because his society said that it was ok. The store had plenty. Please explain this. =========== From: ANGEL To: JONBOY Subject: ... Date & Time: 08/05/90 00:13:37 Message Number 7235 Thanks for answering my question; it was interesting to hear your back- ground. Like Turtle, I was somewhat startled at your statement about recognizing erroneous statements. I can't say why, but that made me do a double-take. Anyway, from the tenor of your past statements, I had guessed you were Southern Baptist. I'm glad to see I wasn't off. [Looking over what I just said, let me make sure you understand, that's not a put-down. My Grandmother's Southern Baptist and her theological reasoning is similar to yours. That's how I recognized it]. =========== From: ANGEL To: ... Subject: ... Date & Time: 08/05/90 00:23:30 Message Number 7236 Two digs from _her_ in as many minutes... Angel was keeping score. Sam was fortunate that Angel's grey eyes couldn't kill. She removed the remains of the roll from the player piano. Opening the instrument she began to examine the extent of the damage. Many of the strings were broken, and the felts on several of the hammers were a bit singed ... all that could be fixed. But the worst damage was to the sounding board. It had a rather large hole where the designer had never intended one. "Afraid it's a lost cause," she said to Xon. "Should your employer ask, tell him I'll send someone to remove the wreckage. In the meantime, I think I'll tidy myself up." She retrieved her cape, but realizing the mass of sodden and singed cloth was also a hopeless cause, she dropped it in a waste bin on her way out the door. =========== From: YNGLING To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/05/90 01:06:49 Message Number 7237 Jesus Christ Snakebyte! THat story has a pucker factor of about 10! I hate to even think about it! [shudder] THe Yngling =========== From: YNGLING To: ALL Subject: Oops! Date & Time: 08/05/90 01:16:27 Message Number 7238 It appears as though I may have made it difficult for anyone else to get through to this bbs for 15 - 30 minutes during the wee hours of 8/5/90. I apologize to anyone who might have been pulling out their hair in frustration and to Turtle who was probably inconvenienced more than any- one else. A contrite The Yngling :} =========== From: KEN OBER To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 08/05/90 06:29:15 Message Number 7240 > 70% have Homosexual experiences ... bla ... bla ... bla Okay, so 70% of the people in this country are "Homosexual" at one time or another, so The Specialist is in the MINORITY ... Which means /he/ is sick ... 70% of the populas can't be sick ... It must be that 30% which has that little "problem" IT FOLLOWS! (tm) LOGICALLY! (tm) =========== From: KEN OBER To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 08/05/90 06:40:32 Message Number 7241 > Madonna is blond... And you're not, so you can enver have your own Mtv special, while I can. HA! =========== From: KEN OBER To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/05/90 06:41:25 Message Number 7242 > Who left you in charge of morality? Nothing much to say here, 'ecpt ... GHODS, I LOVE THAT STATEMENT.... Grrr ... Yip! I feel much better now.... =========== From: KEN OBER To: ALL Subject: gee... Date & Time: 08/05/90 06:47:09 Message Number 7243 I wonder if we locked up the Specialist in a room with AJ for a couple years.... I wonder how long it woul dtake The Specialist to turn Gay ... Of course, he'd always have the option of killing himself... =========== From: KEN OBER To: ALL Subject: Problem... Date & Time: 08/05/90 06:48:12 Message Number 7244 Of the messages on this system... 70% .... "I hate gays! They are sick!" "No they aren't, just different!" "Hey, everyone is gay once .... It's normal!" "Bash Gays!" 10% .... "I have a friend, his name is ...." "You are the most inconherent person on this BBS!" 10% .... "I have a MusH-DOS machine, and I have a problem..." "Well, I'd say the reason it keeps exploding is...." 10% .... "God is ..........." Can we all say BBBBBBBOOOOOORRRRRRIIIIIINNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGG? I knew we could .... for the past month or so, this BBS has been the same old stuff going nowhere .... Kinda' like Beyond Chaos, except the arguements are (A) Civilized, and (B) More intelligent.... C'Mon people! LET'S GET A MOVE-ON! We will never decide.... If homosexuality is (A) Normal, (B) Stange, or (C) A sickness If God is (A) Real, (B) Fake, or (C) really George Burns If Mike Greenwald is (A) Ill, (B) Normal, or (C) God If MusH-DOS Machines (A) Work, (B) Don't Work, or (C) are Homosexual If Rufus will (A) Explode, (B) Get arrested, or (C) Pop-Off If this BBS will (A) Move on, (B) Stay here, (C) Send back lovley color photos that prove life really /does/ exist on Mars, but consists of people who just argue about things that will never be worked out all day long, and therefore are fairly useless until they decide that their arguements are futile, and they should move on with their lives.... -- This has been a piblic service announcement from the Ken Ober Society of People Who Really Don't Give a Hoot if Homosexuality is Normal or Not, and Would Really Rather Have Everyone Start a New Subject.... "Byte Stick .... Byte Stick .... Byte Stick!" Opps! I can't do that here, I guess, but it was worth a try.... That's the news, and I'm outta' here..... =========== From: BEATLE To: YNGLING Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/05/90 09:01:34 Message Number 7245 > pucker factor of about 10! I hate to even think about it! I can think of worse things. I have an acute fear of puncturing of my skin and eyeballs [big shudder] =========== From: JONBOY To: YNGLING Subject: spam Date & Time: 08/05/90 09:08:08 Message Number 7246 I figured the "wha-huh?" response may have been ennui and so apologised if the joke was so old that they had to scrape the dinosaur dung off before they recognized it... =========== From: JONBOY To: YNGLING Subject: Homosexuals Date & Time: 08/05/90 09:11:31 Message Number 7247 Gee! You *remember* those abortion discussions huh? I ignord every one of them until it finally died a /richly/ deserved death. This subject along with God may be there too. The problem with God is that the debate has continued for millenia and no one is really any closer. There have been many many classes of philosophical arguments put forth that simply serve to entage those that insist there is no God. It is exactly as you state... nobody is going to change anothers mind if they don't want ti to be. I guess the reason debates carry on is that most people have this real desire - nay! NEED to be vindicated in their opinions. The way to do this is to *win* a debate by having the other person admit they stood on faulty ground. Not damned likely in the case of a built in bias (aka bigotry). To changer the subject - my battle plan against grass worked out rather well. My neighbor finally desired to know /when/ I was going to mow my grass. I asked if that was a volunteer on his part. He screwed up and said he would mow it for $15. Chortling with glee I informed him that he had just won the "JonBoy Cash Crop Award" with the winnings to be counted in bales. Hehehehehe.... Y'know there are a group of people in the world that really puzzle me... they tie themselves down by umbiblical cords undreamed of 40 years ago. I have seen people fall over things, stumble up - rush - fall again, curse, stumble up and finally reach the phone that has been yammering away all this time. I saw my roommate in Cal;ifornia come staggering out of the bathroom, interrupting a perfectly normal rite of defecation, to answer a phone because I said I was busy and it would wait. Why? I class people that are compulsive about there lawns that way (no implication on /you/ I hasten to add - your spirit is unwilling and that makes you OK in my book). Puzzles me why people tie themselves up.. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Alarm bells Date & Time: 08/05/90 09:24:10 Message Number 7248 Maybe "subliminal uneasiness" would be a better word. Yes, I can hear something that on the surface does not appear to be all that "wrong" but it makes me feel uneasy. I will look up references in the Book and lo and behold, usually there has been either an omission or an outright falsehood (I should say mistake but it's his /duty/ to be accurate!) The Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit is there to counsel and "translate" for us. I see absolutely no reason to doubt that this is what I am experiencing. Sometimes the "internal alarm" simply warms up and I can get a profitable study session on what has been discussed. As an interesting sidelight, my Dad, who did not accept Christ until he was in his 40's, syas he is the same way, I asked him once because I noticed that sometimes during a sermon he would read the Bible and only occasionally come up for air. He said that he was just "nudged" to read further in what was started in the scripture quote. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Bwoing! Date & Time: 08/05/90 09:31:54 Message Number 7249 Ahhh c'mon... do I see the beginnings of a miff growing? Back to the subject of rock-n-roll psaltries - they would probably sound like hell since so much of the psaltry' ssurface area is used to resonate, the pickup would noticable interfere. Maybe a Marcus Berry "Hot-Dot" piezo pickup would be better. This would effectively preserve the timre and tone making it just amplified. =========== From: JONBOY To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: Reality Date & Time: 08/05/90 09:36:44 Message Number 7250 If he could explain himself that glibly, then he's been here long enough to know better. JonBoy =========== From: JONBOY To: ANGEL Subject: ... Date & Time: 08/05/90 09:38:08 Message Number 7251 Yer a sweetheart! Please see my reasoning to Turtle. The feeling is real and I believe can manifest itself if the need is strong enough. A short (maybe) story: I was having a hell of a time in a long-distance conversation with my ex-wife as we were in the process of reconciling. She insisted that when I was watching our daughter (who was 2) in the back yard that I didn't pay close enough attention. I was insisting that simply because I "turned my head" for an instant did not make me inattentive. She was adamant in that I was being neglectful. Well we ended up banging the phone down on each other and I distinctly remember feeling that somehow I was wrong but I literally shrugged it off. I was still feeling kinda PO'd when I left to go up to the college. I got up to the street corner and there she was! A tiny girl holding a doll and cars zooming around her in the busy street! I couldn't believe my eyes and felt my heart drop as I was sure she would bolt and get run over. I looked for adults and there weren't any. I turned off my car and ran into the street and brought the little girl back to the sidewalk. I walked 2 blocks west then back until I found someone; "Do you know where this little girl lives?". They pointed me to a house and I went to the front door. A nice-looking young lady opened the door with a "what the hell are you doing with my kid" sort of look. I explained and she immediately RAN into the back yard and came back with a perplexed husband. "Well I only turned my head for a minute - I thought that YOU had her!" I left with them still arguing in /exactly/ the same sort of language that I had been using with my ex not an hour prior. Serendipity? /I/ don't think so. I think that I (and probably the family too) were the beneficiary of a real-life lesson. As soon as I admitted to myself that I had been wrong - I felt much better inside. Comments? =========== From: JONBOY To: KEN OBER Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 08/05/90 09:53:09 Message Number 7252 >Okay, so 70% of the people in this country are "Homosexual" at one time You folks are quick to jump the gun ... I said a homosexual /experience/ this does mean any sort of consummation or long-term behavior - just simply an isolated incident. =========== From: JONBOY To: KEN OBER Subject: Problem... Date & Time: 08/05/90 09:56:47 Message Number 7253 I was always told that a very good policy is "never bring up a problem without offering a solution". What devastatingly witty and totally irrelevant issue would you like to discuss? Subjects that are in the paper are good but the real prpoblem was summed up by King Solomon in Ecclesiastes a couple of thousand years ago. There really is "nothing new under the sun". No matter what we discuss or beat up - it has in fact been beat up and/or discussed before. So why do we waste our time anyway? The real reason we do this is because we are social creatures and desire the company of our peers. The computer aviled communication is this social strata's calling card - all others /cannot/ apply. So we simply socialize - which amounts to a lot of social banter and wasted time (if a meaningful result is considered valid work). =========== From: JONBOY To: BEATLE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/05/90 10:03:08 Message Number 7254 When I was 10, we were visting my relatives in Texas. My uncle John and I were playing tag in the field next to the house. I tripped and fell against the chicken-wire fence. My Uncle came over to help me up. His eyes got big and he grabbed me under one arm and reached over with his other. Things happened so fast - I was appalled when I was finally at the doctors with an Ice-Pak against my head and the doctor was telling my Mom they could sew it back on with a good chance of success. I had totally ripped my ear off and it was hanging on the fence still when my Uncle ran up! It healed excellently BTW when you're young and the cartilage hasn't hardened it can mend itself. =========== From: RUFUS To: YNGLING Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 08/05/90 11:35:36 Message Number 7256 If you want your grass to stop growing, just pave over the whole thing. Which reminds, I have two lawns to mow. They're getting so big we've lost a few poodles in there. =========== From: RUFUS To: TURTLE Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 08/05/90 11:38:52 Message Number 7257 Hell, you mean that 11 acre area east of I-75? =========== From: RUFUS To: KEN OBER Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 08/05/90 11:42:09 Message Number 7258 >And you're not, so you can enver have your own Mtv special, while I >can. Oh good, it'll be "Just Scream Yuppie." What a good idea, you can have your own show and say things like "Gee, Exxon is 10 cents cheaper, so I'll buy it." And before you say it...Yes, I'm being an asshole, but that's what it's all about. =========== From: RUFUS To: KEN OBER Subject: Problem... Date & Time: 08/05/90 11:45:11 Message Number 7259 >"Byte stick .... Byte Stick .... Byte Stick!" Damn, I was gonna say that in response to your message.... "Byte THIS!" =========== From: RUFUS To: JONBOY Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/05/90 11:50:57 Message Number 7260 Arrrggh.....first testicles, now ears, what's going to fall off next? [sorry, that wasn't meant as a joke, I've just noticed this string of "he lost this....this fell off....blood everywhere...] =========== From: BEATLE To: JONBOY Subject: Homosexuals Date & Time: 08/05/90 14:58:15 Message Number 7261 I don't know about anyone else, I have learned a lot from the debates, thought about my positions, and learned better ways to reiterate my ways of thinking and stating my opinion... Example... after thnking over the issue of homosexuality, debating sickness or not, I finally realized things. These things hadn't been coming to me, and since I didn't think of them before, I was lost. Sorry about the repetitive nature of that thing above. =========== From: BEATLE To: JONBOY Subject: Problem... Date & Time: 08/05/90 15:05:56 Message Number 7262 I have another subject (which may or may not open a can of worms, like my message on religion and rock)... I noticed lately that more films going before the MPAA have been recieving X ratings. Very odd to some, since the opponents believe older R rated films had the same sort of contents. One film appealed the rating and won (without making c uts in the film. The proposed solution would be to create a new rating. The MPAA seems to be saying no. Why? It would be a perfect solution for the present. The X rating has been copied and abused to hell and back. The MPPA still claims ownership, and I believe it could be used as a scare tactic in censorship. "Oh, this film advocates free thinking. Give it an X, so no theatre will show it and it will make no money." A big load of manifest bull****. Opinions? =========== From: BEATLE To: JONBOY Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/05/90 15:12:32 Message Number 7263 > ...when you're young and the cartilage hasn't hardened, it can mend > itself. That's an interesting story. I was speakin, however, of things more along the lines of my paranoia (Yes, I'm quite sure I'm just paranoid). I am constantly afraid of someone coming into my home at night with a knife. I don't like knives or razor blades. I don't like being near them (Well, eating utencils don't count, except for those BIG ones)... the other thing I don't like thinking of (this really isn't paranoia, just a sick thought) is having the pointed twisty ends on a wire fence (sort of like barbs on barbed wire) going into your eyes. I think of that every once in a blue moon while looking at one of those fences. =========== From: YNGLING To: JONBOY Subject: greener grass.. Date & Time: 08/05/90 16:50:01 Message Number 7265 Jonboy- Much as I hate taking care of the damned stuff I have to admit it /does/ look better after it has been mowed, trimmed, raked, etc. ad naseum.... Besides, if I dont mow then my wife wont do the housework (division of labor and all of that) and pretty soon I'll be stumbling around in the A.M. hollering, "Dont I have any clean socks?! Wheres my white shirt?!" Life was so much simpler once.................. The Yngling =========== From: YNGLING To: RUFUS Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/05/90 16:57:36 Message Number 7266 I covered an accident once where a guy fell over on his motorcycle doing about 60 mph, and somehow managed to come up running - but couldnt stop due to the inertia and ran through a barbed wire fence. Cut him into three pieces slick as a whistle. True story. the Yngling =========== From: YNGLING To: BEATLE Subject: MPAA Date & Time: 08/05/90 17:01:03 Message Number 7267 I have the distinct impression that the MPAA board that makes the ratings decisions is composed of "Mrs. Grundys" and probably should be done away with all together. The Yngling =========== From: SUNTAN To: SYSOP Subject: bbs Date & Time: 08/05/90 17:38:38 Message Number 7268 thanks for your help. I'm new at this (as you can tell) and feeling my way around. since I have your undivided attention, when you download a pgm how do you run it? I have one from another bbs and the last 3 letters are zip. can't get it to run. bought the p/c used and the books that came with it are mainly about dos. =========== From: SUNTAN To: SYSOP Subject: downloading Date & Time: 08/05/90 18:12:56 Message Number 7269 holy cow it worked! THANKS MUCH now if I can figure out how to run it I'll be all set. Do you know where I can get an owner's manual for IBM/PC. It's a fairly old version made in 1980 (I think). Everything in the computer stores and book stores is technical, dry, and boring and usually pertains to MSDOS or new word processing programs. Again, thanks for your help on downloading. I appreciate it. DG =========== From: RUFUS To: YNGLING Subject: greener grass.. Date & Time: 08/05/90 20:42:16 Message Number 7270 Lawns do look better after they are mowed, and I'm a little richer after mowing. One thing I hate are mowers that catch the grass. Those things are a pain in the a**. =========== From: JONBOY To: RUFUS Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 08/05/90 20:59:57 Message Number 7271 Oh no! Feral poodles are the *worst* wayuhl sherruf, ifn ya need ta get up a pawsee lemme know... =========== From: JONBOY To: BEATLE Subject: Problem... Date & Time: 08/05/90 21:02:56 Message Number 7272 Unfortunately - there is a very good possibility that you are right. It's called power and abuse therof. So many things start out as a Good Thing and turn into a political fiasco instead of a public service. A good example that /I/ ran into was UL approval on a circuit that I was considering marketing myself. Did you know that they have the gall to tell you that without sufficient "financial research initiatves" that it can take up to eight years to get UL approval? GE for example pays up and only has to provide a representative sample and get virtually rubber stamped through for the entire product line. =========== From: JONBOY To: BEATLE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/05/90 21:07:45 Message Number 7273 I love knives. I think that a well-made knife is a thing of surpassing beauty. As far as being paranoid - the brain has ways to tell you that some things are going to really hurt and you would regret it for the rest of your life. I see idiots every day at work bitching about wearing their safety glasses. I wish I still had the posted with the blow up of the dude with a sliver the size of a sewing needle protruding from it! I personally scratched my cornea from a piece of solder-coated wire that fell from above behind my safety glasses. Itched and burned for three days. Another pet peeve (probably because I love music so) is idiots that blow air guns and operate noisy machinery with no ear protection. I personally have met enough deaf old toolmakers to see where you end up. =========== From: ANGEL To: JONBOY Subject: ... Date & Time: 08/05/90 21:23:16 Message Number 7274 >As soon as I admitted to myself that I had been wrong - I felt much >better inside. Comments? No. Interesting story, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Side question -- how many kids do you have? =========== From: ANGEL To: BEATLE Subject: Problem... Date & Time: 08/05/90 21:32:57 Message Number 7275 I'm not sure about the MPAA, but the network censors supposedly change their standards regularly to match societal changes. Example, Saturday Night Live has been prohibited from re-running certain former programs that originally met broadcast standards, but are now deemed unacceptable, mostly due their message that drug use is acceptable. "Just Say No Thank You". =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: JONBOY Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/05/90 22:54:45 Message Number 7276 Sure 'nuff. Are you aware of what "Titties 'n Beer" is about from Frank Zappa Live From New York? =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: JONBOY Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/05/90 22:56:37 Message Number 7277 How in the hell do you bring 'what' a piss poor social judicial system has determined to be "criminal acts" into the picture???? Shit, now we gonna discuss how masterbation is illegal in Oregon, and sex in a shopping cart is illegal in Mississippi???? Gawd...... Wheither the sexual act is "forced" or not is not the topic. The topic was (shall I repeat again), what determines a sexual preference or a sickness. Let's leave such petty judicial determinations out of this. Now is sexual acts with a minor an act forced upon someone??? What makes you say the minor didn't want it??? At what age does someone make a proper sexual decision???? How can you state that all those are "forced" acts?????? Arghhhh!!! You "KNOW" that those sheep don't want to get it from some "human"?????? WOW!!!! What insight!!!! =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: JONBOY Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 08/05/90 23:03:23 Message Number 7278 Masculine and feminine are qualities of a particular gender. So what? If all men started wearing dresses and sporting lace undies, that would become a masculine trait.....The issue is what says this homosexual thing is a "decision" and other deviant sexual preferences are uncontrollable sicknesses???? It would take the same warping of my morals to be sexually attracted to a guys ass as it would to be attracted to a 6 year old or a bitch . To me, and I guess a lot of other people, I can't gather the logic or desire to "that" decision......any of them. =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/05/90 23:08:55 Message Number 7279 Thanx, a breath of air amongst the stench.....I've been enjoying the battle, but preparing a "canned" message to respond with . Freedom of choice...... I'm not telling anyone to stop doing what they're doing, just explain to me , how "that" can be a choise or a preference, and sexual acts with children, animals, brick walls and small kitch appliances are all "sicknesses", "crimes" and whatever and not preferences.....geeeez. See ya' =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: AJ As much as I hate taking care of the damned stuff... Wanna hear something really odd... my parents don't want me to mow out lawn when they're not home... I approached my father twice and asked if the lawn should be mowed... then, he went to the store and said later... when he got back, it poured rain. I feel quite lucky. =========== From: BEATLE To: YNGLING Subject: MPAA Date & Time: 08/06/90 00:03:08 Message Number 7282 > should be done away with all together. Well, I doubt that will happen. It made people happy to have it back in '68, so they'll be keeping it. Without a system, there's gonna be more controversy than there is now... One odd thing about ratings... I was always under the impression that "Red Dawn" was the first PG13 film ever... but a reputableentertainment writer (who writes movie reviews for some sources and writes for Starlog ...) I chatted by echo with once said that Steven Spielberg requested a new rating for "Indiana Jones and the Temple Of Doom". What was odd was that he would NOT back down, and I haven't been able to find evidence to support either claim, except for the video, which doesn't help in theatre matters... =========== From: BEATLE To: ANGEL Subject: Problem... Date & Time: 08/06/90 00:10:18 Message Number 7283 > ...Saturday Night Live has been prohibited... Woah!! Tell me more! This sounds interesting... how old are the episodes you speak of? I do remember an odd thing. An episode of SNL I watched when I first started watching was repeated twice that season, but the sketches were re-arranged, and one sketch was completely missing (a take off on the TV film "Amerika" called "Amerida"...)... I also feel a strange feeling that the reruns have been altered in some way... I'd like to see what happens to the sketch which was censored by NBC when  Andrew Dice Clay was on. I didn't think he'd go over like he did. One sketch of dirty material. A miracle... =========== From: TURTLE To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: Stuff Date & Time: 08/06/90 01:37:18 Message Number 7284 >You opened the door so now walk through it. Huh? >You see that I can lead you through the marry path also. Is that a proposition? What "marry path" might that be? >[This is]...a test of your word. What is? Excuse me, Sir, but what the HELL are you talking about? >Sam is a subject that needs an answer also. Okay, the answer is 42. I hate to be nasty, but I don't have the slightest idea what it is you're trying to say. If your message is supposed to convey anything meaningful to anyone who reads it, it's lost on me. What, exactly, is a "test of my word"? What about Sam "needs an answer"? No offense, but you're the single most incoherent individual I think I've ever seen. =========== From: TURTLE To: KEN OBER Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 08/06/90 01:43:34 Message Number 7285 Okay, for the record: IT FOLLOWS! LOGICALLY! is a trademark of The Specialist. Manifest Bullshit is a trademark of Jonboy. aLTER rEALITY and the A/R logo are trademarks of Anarchy Now, Inc. UNIX is a registered trademark of AT&T/Bell Labs. MSTF and Mythagoras are trademarks of Concept Alliance. "Yip!" is a trademark of Bartholomew Fox. =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Bwoing! Date & Time: 08/06/90 01:52:49 Message Number 7286 >...do I see the beginnings of a miff growing? Nt at all...I was simply very tired when I commented on the probable value of an electric bowed psaltry. I like the instrument itself, but I'm not convinced that an electrified version would be much more than Stringed Death from Hell. A magnetic pickup in such a device would be a Bad Thing (tm)... :) I mentioned it originally because it's hard to imagine an instrument that one would be less likely to want to construct if one were sane, except perhaps an electric accordian--and I know those exist (although I have my doubts about the sanity of someone who would own such a thing.) Perhaps some electric bagpipes???..???..??? =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Problem... Date & Time: 08/06/90 02:01:01 Message Number 7287 >...there really is "nothing new under the sun". Naaah--I don't buy that statement. Here's a question for you, though: Do you believe that a truly sapient artificial intelligence would be a self-determining entity with the same rights accorded people, or would it simply be a machine subject to ownership just like any other mechanical device? =========== From: TURTLE To: RUFUS Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 08/06/90 02:03:43 Message Number 7288 No, no, no, not that...I mean the /real/ Hell. You know, the divine wrath-of-God hell. "Hell: A Subsidiary of Anarchy Now, Inc. Under New Management." I bet I could fix that climate-control problem. =========== From: TURTLE To: BEATLE Subject: New Subject Date & Time: 08/06/90 02:07:00 Message Number 7289 >I don't like knives or razor blades. Blasphemer! Heathen! Unclean beast! I /love/ knives; I used to collect 'em ('til some of my more...um.../exotic/ ones got reallocated by an ex-roommate, that is.) How can anyone be /afraid/ of knives? By them- selves, they're just inert bits of metal; it's kinda like being afraid of telephones, or carpets, or any other random objects. It seems to me to be more profitable to be afraid of the /person/ carrying the knife... =========== From: TURTLE To: SUNTAN Subject: bbs Date & Time: 08/06/90 02:12:05 Message Number 7290 You can't run a .ZIP file. .ZIP means the file inside has been ZIPped; it's a technique of compressing the file, kinda like folding it up and putting it in a box so it takes less room. You gotta find an unZIP program (it's called "pkunzip") and run that on the .ZIP file first. =========== From: TURTLE To: SUNTAN Subject: downloading Date & Time: 08/06/90 02:14:58 Message Number 7291 I don't know where you can find a PC manual still floating around; IBM hasn't made the baseline PC for /years/. You might be well- advised to get a good book on Mush-DOS. The file you downloaded isn't a program, it's a text file; you can look at it by typing "TYPE filename" at the MS-DOS prompt, where "filename" is the name of the file you downloaded. =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Problem... Date & Time: 08/06/90 02:18:12 Message Number 7292 Neat thing about the MPAA--the person who pretty much singlehandedly runs the thing /hates/ it and doesn't like the idea of rating movies at all. He created it because he thought it was the lesser of two evils; when it was formed there was a considerable amount of public pressure building for some sort of regulatory board, and he figured that an internal ratings board was preferable to an external censorship board that was subject to pressure from governmental and lobbying agencies. I do wish the MPAA had copyrighted the "X" rating, though, or would at least replace it with a new rating ("A" for adult?) that /was/ copy- righted and couldn't be used by every porno-flick producer who wandered down the pike. =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Knifes Date & Time: 08/06/90 02:21:48 Message Number 7293 >I think a well-made knofe is a thing of surpassing beauty. You too, huh? I can't help getting shivers when I think about the katanas that came out of Japan's feudal period; those things took years to make and have survived for literally centuries. They're some of the most beautiful objects in the world; no wonder they're generally regarded with something like religious awe, and taking one out of Japan is currently considered treason... =========== From: KEN OBER To: JONBOY Subject: Problem... Date & Time: 08/06/90 06:35:25 Message Number 7294 > would you discuss??? Nice weather today, isn't it .... Sorry ... I DID bring up a problem without a solution... =========== From: KEN OBER To: RUFUS Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 08/06/90 06:37:18 Message Number 7295 > Oh good, it'll be "Just SCream Yuppie." What a good idea, you can > have your own show and say things like "Gee, Exxon is 10 cents cheaper > , so I'll buy it." Look, that remark was sarcastic when I said it, and you know it... You're being an asshole! > And before you say it...Yes, I'm being an asshole, but that's what > it's all about. That's all it is with you, isn't it? And I thought you were a nice guy. =========== From: KEN OBER To: RUFUS Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/06/90 06:40:07 Message Number 7296 > what's going to fall off next? Radagast's head allmost did when he cleverly lost his balance, tried to aim for the bed to cushion his fall, but overshot and hit his head on the wall ... But atleast a metal picture frame was there, which caused his head to begin gushing blood... =========== From: KEN OBER To: TURTLE Subject: New Subject Date & Time: 08/06/90 06:49:42 Message Number 7297 > it's kinda like being afraid of telephones, or carpets, or babble..bab Or H-Bombs, or Uranium 238, or Radon, or Cancer, or Death, or Life, or being 30..... =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: JONBOY Subject: Reality Date & Time: 08/06/90 08:41:59 Message Number 7298 I explained what he was doing to you after the fact. The kid was in a future shock situation. Should he have been is my question. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: KEN OBER Subject: gee... Date & Time: 08/06/90 08:52:04 Message Number 7299 I am going to defend The Specialist and AJ both. I do not believe that AJ would do a thing. From his writings I would sa y that he is pretty sensible. Aj has his problems but so do all of us. You know I could overlook AJ for the ideas he expresses outside The Specialist is a good gent also. In fact I would like to communicate with him regularly. He has something to say =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: KEN OBER Subject: Problem... Date & Time: 08/06/90 09:01:30 Message Number 7300 Mike Greenawald is not GOD by any means. I just discovered why the statement I make I am who I am. makes people upset. I am not he but he helps me. He has carried me on his shoulders over a number of pits in the road. I do not think that I am ill. My sinus problem is back however. Ken you are the only dude I know who has a two part handle. ===========