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 Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->125 of 133
 Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
  To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON MASON (#145)
Date ->09/14/88  05:31:08 PM

Hey Mike, I didn`t say that I was overwhelmed, it just appeared that maybe
you thought that you could overwhelm some of the people. I`m not shy , if I
don`t know of a certain world it doesn`t bother me to look it up. At the same
time I do know that some people do have complex`s about their make up and will
do what they can to divert others away, to mask what they are lacking.
Might I add that you do a good job on your word processor, ok!!!!!!!

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 Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->126 of 133
 Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
  To ->DON F ECKER (#17)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/14/88  10:36:00 PM

O, my Antonio, I do know of these
     That therefore only are reputed wise
     For saying nothing; when, I am very sure,
     If they should speak, would almost damn those ears
     Which, hearing them, would call their brothers fools.
   
         --Shakespeare, MERCHANT OF VENICE,I.i.95-99.

     It happened as the Autumn evening set cool foot into the
settling dust of Summer.  In reaching for a flower, Jacob was
stung by a bee.  His sobs soaked my dress and he shivered in my
arms as the warmth of his finger made a puddle of the ice held
against it.  The sobs quieted, the shivering stopped as the
evening folded around us but Jacob's childhood was gone, dashed
off into the faded light of Summer's end. 
 
--Michael K. Graham, "A Flick of Feathered Scale [Ch 7, pg. 17]" 


Deception is assumed, when fanciful claims are made, because the
burden of proof is upon those who make them.  But there are those
who shall always believe, cling with tenacity to the flickering
light at Summer's end.  Because they believe, they want others to
believe, imputing the skeptic with heresy.  Their cries languish,
their visions evanesce.  The flowering of faith withers in their
passing, leaving the cold root of reason to sprout anew.

400 years ago, a little girl named Abigail Williams cried,
"witch!"  Doctors and lawyers, tailors and soldiers believed and
were afraid.  A mephitic reek of fear came to the town and before
a breeze of reason could clear it, hundreds were dead, slain in
the most inhumane ways imaginable.

There seems unavailable a way to inculculate the lesson
demonstrated by that and other dark ages of human history.  A
stochastic outbreak of like sightings and people fall their
mental knees.  They're a miasma, spreading disease in geometric
progression from themselves, convincing others with stories of
inimical aliens, breeding unwarranted fear.

The Holocost is engraved in the terminated genealogical tree of
thousands of families.  It is burned into the earth by mass
graves that are still being found.  Hundreds of thousands of feet
of film, not imbued with imaginative life by a belief that it
must be 'hidden somewhere.' are available to anyone with the
stomach to watch.  They are clear and evident and come from a
time that had little ability to alter their testimony, you can
date the celluloid.  There is no comparison.

Within the scope of this argument, I suggest that hysteria is
possible on the scale implied, over the area implied, in the time
implied.  There is always something going on.  The rajneesh eats
tonight as do you.B

 Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->127 of 133
 Sub ->Re: Evolving life
  To ->JUSTIN BOGGS (#128)
From ->JIM SPEISER (#56)
Date ->09/15/88  07:46:10 PM

Justin:

Really don't have time to get into this with you, but your figures don't
tell the whole story. (Assuming their correct in the first place). Since
the beginning of time, there may have been 10 to the 64 different per-
mutations occuring, making the chances against such proteins NOT evolving
approximately 10 to 1. I don't stand behind my figures, but I'd be willing
to bet they are conservative.

Its like saying that the chances against four people playing bridge being
dealt hands that consisted of A-K in each suit. The odds against something
like that occuring are something like a quadrillion to one -- ON ANY ONE
HAND. But given all the bridge hands that have been played since the game
was invented, its bound to occur some time -- as it once did, in champ-
ionship play.

        Jim

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 Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->128 of 133
 Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
  To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON F ECKER (#17)
Date ->09/15/88  10:56:42 PM

Words learned by rote a parrot may rehearse,
But talking is not always to converse;
Not more distinct from harmony divine,
The constant creaking of a country sign.

                 William Cowper


Impossible is a word only to be found in
the dictionary of fools.

                 Napoleon


Yes Michael, I know that you suggest that
the events in the Hudson Valley may be
hysteria.  witnesses   that are employed to
guard nuclear power stations, police officers
that guard the community, military personal that
are responsible for the welfare of the nation,
airline pilots, school teachers, scientists
accountants, attorneys, reporters, all these
people suffering mass hysteria over a 4 year
period.  How silly of me, now I wish I had
studied psychology, talk about a ready made
client group, makes my wallet tremble just to
think about it.  I could afford that 1400 LT, 
buy a new stereo, get that washer for my wife,
take those flying lessons, get Michael a new
updated Websters......................N81N         
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 Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->129 of 133
 Sub ->UFOs and Straw Men
  To ->Michael Graham
From ->JIM SPEISER (#56)
Date ->09/16/88  01:26:58 AM

Hellooooooooo Boise.....

Mr. Graham, I've been reading with great interest your posts in the UFO
debate section here. You seem to be a master debater -- verbally
speaking.

Yet for all your elocutionary aplomb, you seem to be missing a few vital
points. For example, you state that the "appearance of authenticity is
insufficient." Insufficient for what? For proof? Certainly. To qualify
as bearing discussion and inquiry? Hardly. Why do you and others insist
on painting ufology into the corner of requiring absolute, undeniable
proof before it can be taken seriously? Surely no one here is claiming
to have proof that "UFOs are aliens and the government knows it." All we
are saying is that, A) Anomalous data exists in the form of various
reports which exhibit curious consistency, B) said data SUGGESTS
intelligent control and/or government knowledge of the extraordinary
nature of the phenomenon, C) insufficient prosaic explanations have been
advanced to bring the data in line with the current scientific paradigm,
D) the ET Hypothesis is sufficiently wondrous and substantial in its
potential benefits to merit serious consideration; E) insufficient
theoretical arguments have been advanced against said hypothesis. That's
it. We do NOT say, "AND THEREFORE ITS ALIENS," as you repeatedly accuse Phil
Imbrogno (and by extension, us) of saying. We do say, "AND THEREFORE,
STOP LAUGHING AND HELP US FIND OUT WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON!"

None of this is to be construed as an entreatise to cease your skeptical
input. On the contrary, ParaNet will not survive without such input, for
that is our raison d'etre. But we do ask that such input be offered in
an even-handed manner, that is, without the use of straw-man arguments
such as your "and therefore its aliens," or your implication that we are
claiming to have proved our case. Instead of bemoaning the proof we
don't have, try addressing the data we do.

                Jim Speiser
                Alpha



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 Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->130 of 133
 Sub ->Re: UFOs and Straw Men
  To ->JIM SPEISER (#56)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/16/88  09:41:43 PM

Mr. Speiser,

The comments made, do not necessarily reflect my own beliefs at
all.  Don made a very good point in that some of the cases
contain so much circumstantial evidence and corroborating
testimony, were they a court case they might positively sway the
jury; I shall ever and always take the opposite side, for without
it there is, of course, no debate.

But....

The issue itself is of such an odd nature, such a potentially
threatening one, so fantastic and unbelievable that the
paracletes of UFO's must dig themselves out of a hole before they
may start at the origin of the argument.  Thus, rather than sit
idle at the keyboard, watching the phosphor float by, I choose to
gain knowledge by taking the opposite side of an argument with a
gentleman I have really come to like.

And....

You will notice that I have succeeded.  Although Don has a
tendency towards tautology, and disdains response to difficult
issues, resting instead on old, reliable arguments that he has
heard from somewhere else, although he wont entertain certain
ideas at all, he has given me grist for my mill.  Maybe I've done
the same for him.

Therefore....

I shall continue to address the data in the way that I feel has
already shown itself to work in this context, mocking when I
receive sneers, comforting when I sense irritation, discussing
facts when I see facts, and so on.  My purpose is not to
discourage or demoralize, not even to laugh [although some of
Don's quote-throwing has floored me!] but to continue the debate.

By the way....

In 1978, I had an encounter of my own, passing over the La Posa
plain by car.  The road I was on was posted the full length with
signs instructing vehicles to remain on it.  On either side were
military testing sights.  I don't suggest extraterrestrial origin
either, but I've seen what kind of G's a human may take and yet
survive; this wasn't within the parameters.  So that when I
suggest various explanations, I must include within the scope of
the argument [remember the argument *is* the field of play,
nothing from inside holds relevance outside.] myself.

However....

My objection to Night Siege remains, and if you are an extension,
so be it.  The damn thin' is packaged like a cheap whore, wrapped
in sensationalism and depending on the ready preconceptions of
the public:  OVER 5000 SIGHTINGS IN THE LAST YEAR -- NIGHT SIEGE,
The Hudson Valley UFO [in the same blown lettering as Night
Siege] Sightings.  On the back:  Five thousand responsible people
claim to have seen SOMETHING...WHAT IS GOING ON????  Of course,
the usual filler hype included between the headlines.  This is
the sort of packaging that discredits the book even before it is
picked up.  Try a fanciful approach, like COMMUNION, and more of
the people you feel should be reached shall be.  All it takes is
a little sub title, 'based on a true story,' and a list of
'additional reading' in the back.  

 Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->131 of 133
 Sub ->Re: UFOs and Straw Men
  To ->JIM SPEISER (#56)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/16/88  09:43:39 PM

J.S. --

"All we are saying is that, A) Anomalous data exists in the form
of various reports which exhibit curious consistency, B) said
data SUGGESTS intelligent control and/or government knowledge of
the extraordinary nature of the phenomenon, C) insufficient
prosaic explanations have been advanced to bring the data in line
with the current scientific paradigm, D) the ET Hypothesis is
sufficiently wondrous and substantial in its potential benefits
to merit serious consideration; E) insufficient theoretical
arguments have been advanced against said hypothesis. That's it."

MG XII -- 

A. TRUE]  Yes the data exists, such that some real event is
acting as anlage.  Whether the event is singular of plural is
questionable, given other instances of a like profile which
resolved themselves into a single incident after close
examination, with more than verbal verification, or were observed
to do so years later through examination of independent writings.

B. FALSE]  Intelligent control has been ascribed by humans to
confusing processes [weather, volcanos, electricity and
magnetism] for as long as that little section of their brain has
been developed.  They also as a rule give human personalities to
inanimate objects, and put their own thoughts into the heads of
animals.  The reason it is taken as false is because it is not at
all clear whether the object is the source of the conclusion or
the conclusion the source of the object.  The observational data
have no relevance to the assumption of governmental knowledge.

C. FALSE]  Scientific explanation has been advanced on all the
empirical data presented.  No scientific explanation beyond
hypothesis may be advanced upon witness testimony, as witness
testimony is notoriously unreliable, and unduplicable.  Give
science a piece of metal to analyze, or a language to decipher or
even recorded magnetic data.  They'll change their tune.

D. FALSE]  The ET Hypothesis bases itself first on [B.] which is
false.  It is, in fact, a wonderful idea.  The potential benefit
from ET civilizations is enormous.  Equally enormous are the
potential dangers, even if EBE's mean well.  One major
technological boon might plunge the society into chaos.  The
sociological implications are such that we would be more likely
to be absorbed into their society, than they into ours.  Remember
the American Indian.

E. FALSE]  That the explanations haven't sat well with the
UFOoligists is true, but they're at least as valid as the counter
hypotheses, and based on about as much evidence.K
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 Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->132 of 133
 Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
  To ->DON F ECKER (#17)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/16/88  09:46:34 PM

     What ardently I wished, I long believed,
     And, disappointed still, was still deceived.
     By expectation everyday beguiled,
     Dupe of to-morrow even from a child.

                            --Cowper
                              On the receipt of my mother's
                              Picture, lines 38-41.


     Impossible is a word to be found only in the dictionary
     of Fools.

                            -- Napoleon Bonaparte

Impossible that it could be a form of hysteria?  Don, I'm
disappointed in you.  Even after I gave you such a florid
example, to receive this scathing objurgation is more than a
gentleman may bear.  Tsk, Tsk, then...I'LL weaken the Salem
solution for you:  You touched upon the merest edge of an idea
when you mentioned 'religious fanatics....[with] no sense of
humor.'  Salem and outlying settlements were essentially
theocracies.  Everywhere people turned, every day, they were
being told of demons and witches dancing in the forest with the
Black Man.  Forests were a source of terrible danger to the
colonists, and much evil was imagined in their shadowed depths. 
Darkness which surrounded the colony on almost every side.  There
was no childhood for the children, they were expected to behave
as adults.  There was no enjoyment for the adults, beyond what
they could find between the pages of the Bible, as other books
were outside the bible and therefore evil, while pictures and
music that did not praise the Lord, thereby blasphemed.  Salem
was a dry, pressured field of straw, waiting to go up.  If not
the witch hunts, then something else would have set the field
alight.  This is hardly the case for the scattered incidents of
Night Siege.

Feel better?  O.K., now I'll turn about and reply to that
weakening in the following example:  Some years ago, in a textile
factory a woman was startled by a June Bug.  Coincidentally, a
rash appeared, the cause of which latter turned out to be at the
woman's dwelling.  But the rash really broke through the
afternoon after the woman had fainted, and she became afraid and
her body reacted to the stress, making her ill.  Word got around
of the 'deadly june bugs,' and soon people were developing rashes
that had no origin other than their own minds, yet were evident
on their arms, faces, legs and back after an encounter with one
of the bugs.  These were rational people [no pun intended], yet
the rashes were quite real, caused entirely by their own
imagination.  The incident lasted a total of seven months, after
which the only solution was to spray the place and rid it of the
harmless beetles.

Don, I've hypnotized people and, out of mere curiosity, told them
that a pencil they were holding was becoming red-hot, yet that
they would not find themselves able to let go.  Two of the five
I've done this to developed water blisters, just as if they'd
held a real hot piece of metal between thumb and forefinger.

My point is that senses are unreliable, no matter how many
different sets corroborate witnessed events.  Your body is a
mechanism that needs only the proper fiddling of knobs to elicit
any response desired, within its capability.  Give me an
electrode, I'll let you relive a portion of your childhood.  Give
me another, I'll make you afraid of your own shadow.  Give me
your mind, and I shall make your world go away. K
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 Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->133 of 133
 Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
  To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON F ECKER (#17)
Date ->09/16/88  11:43:38 PM

 "Friendship's the privilege
Of private men, for wretched greatness knows
No blessing so substantial."
                                   Tate


"Man is the only creature endowed with
the power of laughter; is he not the only
one that deserves to be laughed at?"
                                Greville


Michael, I must say I am very DISAPPOINTED in your
last response.  I thought for sure, you would have
caught me with tongue firmly in cheek concerning
Salem.  The gibe about Salems humor to be specific.
I didn't miss the point about Salem, I merely 
dismissed it.  Several messages ago, you gave yourself
away, when you mentioned your knowledge concerning the
incident in Roswell.

I too have greatly enjoyed this debate, However;
Tsk Tsk, I take you to task concerning your remark
to J. Speiser concerning my reluctance to debate
difficult issues. Not true Mon Ami.  (Did I get that
right?)  Imagine accusing ME of practicing Tautology!
And, besides, if the OLD RELIABLE ARGUMENTS work, 
well, what could I possibly say?

Now, what ideas do you accuse me of NOT entertaining?
Michael, I consider myself to be one of the MOST 
open minded people I know, and if anyone disagrees, well
then, damnit, let's burn his damn hut down!!!!!!! OOOOPS,
sorry, got carried away.  Oh, yes, I almost forgot.
Forget it if you think you are going to get close to me
with an electrode, and if I am not mistaken, my ex. stated
on several occasions that I had no mind!  Of course, I
debated that with her, and after all, she did sign the 
house over to me with no money changing hands. ( And to 
think she accused me of being a spendthrift.)

But, to get back to the debate, I submit to you,
Michael, there is a large difference between a group
of people imagining a rash from a beetle, and an object
described by thousands as being several hundred feet in
length.  You mentioned a factory town, which I must then
assume that the educational level must have been low,
possibly ridden with superstition, and easily influenced.
Quite a difference from college graduates holding responsible
positions, school teachers, police, military officers, and
the like.   I further submit that quite simply, IT WON"T
WASH BUCKWHEAT.81N         
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[B16 #133 of 133] ? for more cmds or Cmd [N]#demons and witches dancing in the forest with the
Black Man.  Forests were a source of terrible danger to the
colonists, and much evil was imagined in their shadowed depths. 
Darkness which surrounded the colony on almost every side.  There
was no childhood for the children, they were expected to behave
as adults.  There was no enjoyment for the adults, beyond what
they could find between the pages of the Bible, as other books
were outside the bible and therefore evil, while pictures and
music that did not praise the Lord, thereby blasphemed.  Salem
was a dry, pressured field of straw, waiting to go up.  If not
the witch hunts, then something else would have set the field
alight.  This is hardly the case for the scattered incidents of
Night Siege.

Feel better?  O.K., now I'll turn about and reply to that
weakening in the following example:  Some years ago, in a textile
factory a woman was startled by a June Bug.  Coincidentall